Stuck in intermediate

Stuck in intermediate

Postby fsdasd@gmail.com » Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:28 am

I am able to ski on groomed surfaces but fall apart on moguls and steeps. I seem to have difficulty indicating my turns.
https://youtu.be/2hgXfWs5uNg
Thanks for suggestions
Frederic
fsdasd@gmail.com
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:32 pm

Re: Stuck in intermediate

Postby HeluvaSkier » Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:26 pm

Curious what you have done since the feedback received in your two previous MA threads. The skiing is largely unchanged since 2016, so what specific exercises have you been doing for the last 5+ years? Where's the video of those exercises that you have been using to track your progress? How do they compare with the performance checks in the books? You received good feedback from a number of coaches, including HH himself, going all the way back to 2014. Did you do what they suggested?

Thread 1: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4338
Thread 2: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4867
Discipline is the refining fire by which talent becomes ability.

www.youtube.com/c/heluvaskier
User avatar
HeluvaSkier
 
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:29 pm
Location: Western New York

Re: Stuck in intermediate

Postby fsdasd@gmail.com » Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:30 pm

So I am 67 years old and and although I have persistence I am not a particularly gifted with athletic ability. I have read the essentials of skiing 1 and 2 and have reviewed almost all of the harold harb youtube videos. I ski about 8 days a year and while I am skiing I work on release of edges and trying to keep my weight forward . As you said my skiing is about the same as it was 5 years ago. So the PMTS system may work for others but it hasn't really worked for me.
fsdasd@gmail.com
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:32 pm

Re: Stuck in intermediate

Postby HeluvaSkier » Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:00 am

Many on this forum are in similar situation with regard to limited skiing days, poor athletic ability, and advanced age. I have coached a fair number of 60+ year-old members of this forum over the years... one in particular, an 80-year-old gentleman decided that for his 80th birthday season he would LEARN to ski bumps (and he did). The coaches from HSS have many similar success stories, too numerous to count (I've met and skied with many of those skiers as well). PMTS has proven time and time again that it works for those and many other skiers... for the skiers who are putting the work in and taking charge of their own improvement. So, I ask again, what exercises have you done on a regular basis to ensure your own success? "Keeping your weight forward" is not a PMTS concept, and there are many ways to release an edge... PMTS uses one, specifically, so I can already gain some insight into your familiarity with the material. From an outsider's perspective it doesn't appear that it is PMTS that isn't working for you, but rather that you aren't working. The most tailored improvement progression on earth isn't going to work for any skier if they aren't going to actually use it.
Discipline is the refining fire by which talent becomes ability.

www.youtube.com/c/heluvaskier
User avatar
HeluvaSkier
 
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:29 pm
Location: Western New York

Re: Stuck in intermediate

Postby Max_501 » Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:08 am

Teaching yourself to ski from books and videos takes a lot of motivation and dedication. If you hit the slope with friends you need to decide if you are there to to take instructions from HH or to rip around the mountain with your friends.

IMO, the keys are to follow the progression exactly as HH has presented it in Book 1, correct any boot fit and alignment issues, and confirm that you are doing the drills correctly.

Here's a list of questions I ask DIY students that aren't progressing as fast as they'd like:

When working through Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier 1 what method did you use to confirm that you could perform the movements in each section properly before moving to the next? How much time do you spend each ski day working on the drills? Have you done the dryland slant board training (a useful tool for those that have limited on snow time)? Have you done anything to check your boot size, fit, and alignment?

These posts were written to help DIY distance learners.

Max_501 wrote:
The following post is for DIY distance learners that are using the books, videos, and this forum as the means to learn PMTS.

Let me be clear with regards to the progression a DIY PMTS student should follow. Start with Book 1 and develop the phantom. Any suggestion that the material from Book 2 or Essentials is needed to make progress with Book 1 is incorrect. Sure, the material in those books will help refine the subject matter learned in Book 1 but working from them before one has worked through Book 1 isn't necessary nor is it likely to speed up learning the material in Book 1. That said, if you enjoy reading and watching skiing video then reading Book 2 while you work through Book 1 may be educational, but don't jump ahead and work on the drills in Book 2. I'd suggest saving Essentials until you have finished working through Book 1. If you want to speed up the learning curve then make extensive use of video. And I mean EXTENSIVE. Have someone video your drills. Ideally you'd watch your drills the minute you finished so you could make corrections as you work towards mastery of that drill. Constantly confirm that you are doing the drills correctly.

Read this post by Harald Harb written in 2004 - Book Learning

The question is why do all of the coaches here (including HH) and the very experinced PMTS students often suggest Book 1 when trying to help a new PMTS practictioner? It all starts with developing the phantom.

Once upon a time HH wrote:

The Phantom Move or Phantom Turn, for example, recruits a series of movements that consolidates an early parallel turn. The Super Phantom refines and increases versatility with higher balance requirements. As balance with PMTS movements increases, wider ranges of skiing are available to the skier. In the early stages of PMTS we clearly stand on one ski and transfer balance from one foot to the other. Tipping and tilting are the basic movements we teach in our many and varied progressions and exercises. Later as a skier refines balance through PMTS, versatility becomes more available. To gain higher levels of skiing quickly, demands you experiment with your balance. Supplemental balance activities can also shorten the learning curve.


jbotti wrote:
For those that don't like "Page one Book one" for an answer, there is only one question, have you ever been on Epicski? Ask a question there and you will quickly get 25 responses most of them contradictory, and then in the same thread 5 guys will carry on an argument about who is right. We (moderators and HH) have made a very conscious decision with this site. Its designed as a forum to support the learning and advancing PMTS skier. Its not an enrollment vehicle for Harbskisystems. The HSS camps are full by September every year and even I need to get lucky if I book a lesson with Harald or Diana past August to find a date that can work.

Now back to someone that is new to PMTS. Anyone that is being honest about skiing will tell you that improving one's skiing takes work and dedication. If one wants to take the PMTS route (and no one has to as there are a zillion so called experts willing to take one's time and money to help improve your skiing) there is a very clearly outlined gameplan to build the necessary foundations for advancing and for learning and mastering PMTS movement patterns. I guess I will shock no one when I say (no repeat) that this all starts on "Page one, Book 1". Knowing that this is the case, that there is a carefully designed path for success that starts with specific movements and exercises, why would we ever tell anyone something different.

So the next and obvious question comes back to why do so many people get told book 1, page 1? And maybe this isn't so obvious to everyone, but when we see questions and or movements in video that is posted, its obvious that the most basic PMTS fundamentals are missing both from the skiing and from the knowledge base. Sending one anywhere else would be disingenuous and a disservice. What I don't think anyone sees is a skier with strong tipping skills, strong CA and flexion that is lacking CB in their skiing get told to go back to Page 1 Book 1. The truth is that most skiers just starting to work on PMTS movements, pretty much all (myself included) think (or thought) they are/were better at the movements than they are/were. Anyone that has ever been to a camp remembers their first few days working with a PMTS instructor and seeing the video that proves that they aren't doing what they thought they were doing.

Now considering the moderators and HH have been doing this all for free for many years (and no, none of us think we can add what HH does) and we have all studied intently the PMTS literature, have done the drills, have been to camps and taken private lessons and some are blue level PMTS instructors, does it come as any surprise that at times we are less than enthusiastic about explaining something that could be answered with a minimum of effort either using the search function of the forum or by actually reading the books?

We also delete posts from time to time because we made a decision many years ago that we would not have this be like Epic where in one thread you will see 15 different contradictory responses and no one can figure the correct path to advance. So yes we delete posts that give incorrect information or lead people in the wrong direction. We continue to make every attempt to keep the threads and info on this forum in alignment with helping to advance PMTS skiers at all levels.

So I guess we could say that we are sorry that we haven't found a way to make this forum more inviting to the newbie, but that wouldn't be true. We have made choices, conscious ones to try and deliver a consistent message , that involves a designed and consistent path and that requires at its core YOUR WORK AND DEDICATION! Without that its all a waste of everyone's time and energy and all of us (mods, HH, Diana) are truly interested in seeing people advance, beyond their wildest dreams!
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4113
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Re: Stuck in intermediate

Postby ChrisV » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:53 am

Would just like to give a student's perspective. Frederic, I'm nearly 65 years old, and also not particularly gifted with athletic ability, lifelong experience would suggest. That doesn't stop me from working hard on my skiing, I dare say making progress, and over time increasing my ability to enjoy varied terrain and snow conditions.

A more serious challenge is that you ski only about eight days a year. Max_501 has given valuable advice about opportunities for dryland training. Working with Harb carvers would be another option. Still, I think all would have to concede that the dryland work isn't exactly like being on snow. So, if you have eight days of skiing in a season, that's perhaps 48 hours. If you spend 40 of those hours just cruising around having fun, maybe social skiing with friends, it's going to be very tough to make progress with your skills. Improvement takes a lot of dedicated practice. If you flip that, and spend perhaps 36 hours working on basic skills, the primary movements, in a very focused way, then you should be able to make significant progress. No immediate miracles, mind you, but progress. So it comes down to what you want, and what you're willing to invest in time and sweat to pursue your goals--just as Max_501 said.

Your skiing right now does the job, sort of, for you to be able to have fun skiing blue groomers such as seen in your latest video clip. But you've said it yourself, you fall apart on moguls and steeps, and frankly it's not hard to see why. Going through all that you should seek to change would be above my pay grade, and others well qualified have already done a good job with that.

When you see great skiers on the mountain, or in video clips, realize that they didn't get to be that way based just on innate athletic talent, although it helps. Every one of those skiers put in countless hours of practice, year after year, much of it at slow speeds, honing basic skills and strengthening movements to the point that they became automatic. Much of that was doing drills that many people would consider tedious and boring. That's the price they've paid for greatness. Every one of those skiers continues to practice improving those basic skills, and to return over and over to the most basic drills, self-critiquing constantly to detect any weakness, and finding ways to eliminate it.

Harald said back in 2014, "Both Max and Geoffda have it right, first you need the Phantom Move book 1." When you read Anyone 1 and 2, and Essentials, think about how many of the exercises, the phantom move and much more, involve balancing on one foot, or one ski skiing. Maybe you've been doing these, but I'm dubious, it doesn't show up in your video. I think that the level of commitment to one ski exercises that's needed puts off a lot of students, honestly. It's hard, it's exhausting at first, it can feel uncomfortable and wrong to start, it's a little bit intimidating. But these are the impediments that you need to push aside if you want to get good.

Best wishes!
ChrisV
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:52 am

Re: Stuck in intermediate

Postby Ken » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:05 am

Fred, work on one thing at a time. Look at your video. Your heels are always ahead of your hips. You limit yourself right here. Nothing much can work right. Look at the PMTS photos and videos where the shot is from the side and notice the difference between that skier and your video. When you have changed your balance so your heels are behind your hips the whole skiing world opens up for you. PMTS has techniques for pulling the feet back at the correct time. Pulling the inside foot strongly back all the time through every turn impels the body forward and is a huge benefit. You might find a good bootfitter who can evaluate your stance and see if your body geometry needs either increased delta (shims under your heel bindings) or more shaft angle (boot cuffs tipped forward)--but this is not a panacea. These changes will be exactly wrong for some people.

Skis have an unmarked sweet spot. It's an area somewhere near the toe bindings. When the skier's center of mass is over the skis' sweet spot the ski performs as the designer intended. When the skier's CoM is behind the sweet spot the tails of the skis act like sled runners and want to go straight and fast. You are inadvertently using your skis like sled runners. Find your balance point where you are on the balls of your feet; you'll feel your skis come alive. (Some will note that one should be centered over the feet. Yes, if that's where the skier actually ends up. Find your spot where your skis are happiest.) When you develop the habit of balancing correctly over your skis the PMTS drills and movements will work wonderfully well for you.
Rooster today
Feather duster tomorrow

VIDEO OF NOT ME
Ken
 
Posts: 783
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:23 pm
Location: Washington, the state

Re: Stuck in intermediate

Postby Max_501 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:54 pm

Ball of the foot is too far forward.

From a thread on getting forward: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4370#p44686

Max_501 wrote:Just a reminder that we've been down this road before. Shin pressure is simply an outcome of proper movements and one of the reasons we like stiff boots.

geoffda wrote:Forget about shin pressure (that is a sensation) and focus on the movement (which is pulling your feet back). Go do the Way Forward drills described in Essentials. You'll find that when you try to do the version of the drill which involves actually making turns from a way forward position, it is very difficult (as it should be).

However, what you will have done with the drill is learned how to get *truly* forward and you have actually explored what too far forward feels like. Believe me, "too far forward" isn't a point of philisophical discussion--there is a clear threshold where you can no longer function effectively as a skier.

Don't make this more complicated than it is. Movements are instructive. If you just go DO the movement, you'll begin to understand the concepts in question. As this thread demonstrates, you can't rely on other people's descriptions of skiing concepts; they are too individual and too fraught with the potential for misunderstanding. Watching skiing (or looking at pictures) is just as problematic. You can only do so much taking about skiing. Beyond a certain point, you have to figure things out for yourself.

Go do and eventually you will find the answers to your questions.


Max_501 wrote:These questions are drifting into the output side of the equation. PMTS is about the input. What movements are used to produce the desired outcome. I never think about using my calf muscle. We don't focus on shin pressure because its the wrong place to look and will be different for each person. There is no ideal ratio because we are in movement and things are constantly changing.

When we talk about the feeling of pressure that results from fore/aft management we focus on the foot. As a skier slices through a turn the pressure moves from slightly in front of the arch to slightly behind the arch. Not everyone gets to a point where they have a good sense of this pressure and its really not required for advanced skiing. But an expert like HH can describe exactly where the pressure is as he is slicing a turn like the one demonstrated in this video:



Learn to get forward using the Essentials and you'll feel shin pressure as a result, simple as that.
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4113
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm


Return to Movement Analysis and Video

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron