Is this a good start for a beginner?

Is this a good start for a beginner?

Postby SlowSteady » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:08 pm

Ok, here it is. I'll put my teaching on up for critique, if not my own skiing. Here's the video of a 12 yo non-athlete on her first day skiing. She is on very small bunny hill, this is her forth run ever. On another thread I incorrectly identified the names of the skills I practiced with her, but whatever this is, I'm impressed how a few instructions gave this result.

She had a first time down the hill to get a taste of the concepts of edge release by side slipping, and the effect of shifting weight fore and aft. Nothing great resulted, just introducing her mind and muscles to the concept of edges and weight distribution. Then a run to release and set both edges during a slow traverse.

The video is her fourth run. She was simply told to keep even slight pressure on the tongues of her boots by leaning a bit forward, and steer by tipping her inside ski a little. The next run she was told to flatten her skis for a second between turns before tipping the new inside ski, but not to twist, let the skis turn, and she did the same run with less wavering in to the brief stem position shown in the first turn of the video. In a few more tries she was told to release her edges a bit by tipping the other way slightly in the last part of the turn and she was able to control her speed some and make more confident turns around obstacles. All in all a one hour lesson and she could get down the hill with just a few instructions. So I don't think this is the PMTS teaching sequence, but does this look like this is a reasonable way to start teaching good technique?

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Re: Is this a good start for a beginner?

Postby Max_501 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:49 pm

For a reference on teaching good technique I would suggest either

Anyone Can Be an Expert Skier 1

or

the PMTS Instructors Manual.
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Re: Is this a good start for a beginner?

Postby milesb » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:33 pm

Good start? Not really- but it could be much worse, and the video really helps. As Max501 sez, there is a PMTS instructor manual (it comes with a short video). Just to give you some idea, it starts beginners with alot of flat snow stepping that involves tipping the inside ski. So the student can learn the movement without sliding.

Make a tipping board- a very gentle one, and follow the tipping board progression. Again, video will be very helpful.
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Re: Is this a good start for a beginner?

Postby SlowSteady » Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:06 pm

I think any teaching method, even a perfect method, can, much like a perfect martial art form, benefit from new ideas and perspectives. I have to consider the psychological factors in getting a troubled and awkward 12 yoa excited about a new sport, which I am an expert on. For that you need early tangible success, as well as encountering a taste of the difficult parts that will challenge one to want to learn more. I think that may be very different from teaching motivated adults and teens who are already hooked and have an idea of where they want to get to. I was hoping that someone here would be interested in that project.

You get what you pay for, fair is fair. I will make a slant board for myself this weekend and I just ordered 5 of the books and 5 DVDs, but it wasn't really the question. If this video is just an abysmal way to start, teaching not just the "wrong" pedagogic route, but also all the wrong skills, I totally am not understanding any of this PMTS system. I know that in a day my students beat the pants off anyone that has taken lessons for a week from a professional instructor at any ski area in Michigan that we have been to, and anytime they take a "lesson" I have to unteach everything they learned. And almost all my students get hooked and keep skiing. I hope it isn't obtuse if I'm afraid to drop everything I thought was working with beginners for years just on a comment that it "isn't great but could be worse."

I would like to keep what works for my kids and improve what I do, if that is possible, or understand why it isn't a good idea. Maybe this isn't the right place to explore that, maybe it is. I haven't found any other group that likes to think and analyze skiing as much as you guys, and I'm sure your all much beyond me in technical knowledge.
Last edited by SlowSteady on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this a good start for a beginner?

Postby polecat » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:05 pm

SlowSteady wrote:.... So I don't think this is the PMTS teaching sequence, but does this look like this is a reasonable way to start teaching good technique?

Define “reasonable.”

If you define reasonable as “as good as or better than the typical teaching found in a typical TTS lesson,” then I would think it probably is.

Bearing in mind that this the PMTS forum, dedicated to the study of PMTS skiing, as developed by Harald and Diana and Rich and.... over many, many years with many, many students of all levels and abilities, and already has a proven methodology for introducing beginners that’s well documented and available, and that the responses you'll get here are based on our experience with PMTS, then perhaps not so much.


SlowSteady wrote:I think any teaching method, even a perfect method, can, much like a perfect martial art form, benefit from new ideas and perspectives....

I agree. But I think one should start with a very thorough understanding of what has already been done before suggesting that something is new.


SlowSteady wrote:…. I have to consider the psychological factors in getting a troubled and awkward 12 yoa excited about a new sport, which I am an expert on. For that you need early tangible success, as well as encountering a taste of the difficult parts that will challenge one to want to learn more. ….

That’s the same argument that TTS uses to justify snowplowing.

Not that the argument is unreasonable (oops, there’s that word again), but it’s a hypothesis that needs to be backed up with real data about how and when it becomes valid.

Harald and company have demonstrated that the old ideas of what can be expected of beginners are sadly lacking. And they have developed methods that work very, very well.


SlowSteady wrote:….. I think that may be very different from teaching motivated adults and teens who are already hooked and have an idea of where they want to get to.....

Again, same TTS logic. One of the things that got Harald all fired up about developing PMTS was that the proponents of TTS were always telling him “that’s fine for you and your racers, but the general public can’t be expected to …”

PMTS is based on real experience with real people of all levels. Is the aspiration to ski like the best of the best? Sure. But even though most of will never get there we’ll be way better off than TTS’s “good enough for the likes of you” results.


SlowSteady wrote:.... If this video is just an abysmal way to start, teaching not just the "wrong" pedagogic route, but also all the wrong skills, I totally am not understanding any of this PMTS system....

We’re only seeing the result of the lesson, so I can’t say how close or far you are in the route or skills you’re trying to teach. But if you’re trying to pass along bits and pieces of PMTS you’re missing the point of its being a complete, holistic system.

When you’ve had the chance to study the books and DVD’s it should become much clearer. It will also give us a common reference of language and ideas and make discussing it much easier.


pc
Last edited by polecat on Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is this a good start for a beginner?

Postby ToddW » Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:42 pm

If you want to help evolve PMTS, become a master trainer or at least get a black level cert as your apprenticeship first. Harald and co. have had many successes teaching children PMTS and you can find several interesting anecdotes if you spend some time googling this forum.
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Re: Is this a good start for a beginner?

Postby kirtland » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:11 pm

Make a tipping board- a very gentle one, and follow the tipping board progression


This link, is not the tipping board, this is the slant board. Does anybody know if there is a link somewhere to the tipping board or tipping plate that used to be on the HSS site? The link I have in my Bookmarks no longer works, and it does not come up with a search.
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Re: Is this a good start for a beginner?

Postby milesb » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:15 pm

kirtland wrote:
Make a tipping board- a very gentle one, and follow the tipping board progression


This link, is not the tipping board, this is the slant board. Does anybody know if there is a link somewhere to the tipping board or tipping plate that used to be on the HSS site? The link I have in my Bookmarks no longer works, and it does not come up with a search.


Sorry, I guess I meant slant board. I called it a tipping board on account of I use it for practicing tipping.
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Re: Is this a good start for a beginner?

Postby kirtland » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:52 pm

SlowSteady, I'm impressed with the success you had there. But I concur with the advice to use the Instructors manual and ACBAES I. I used to teach skiing and coach Junior Regional skiers and High School League racers, but haven't for 6 years, what little teaching I do now, is limited to grand nieces and nephews. I've used the methods in the books mentioned since 1998 or 1999 and think they work well. Much better than what I was trying to do on my own, and was anathema to PSIA and USSA and had similarities to, but was not anywhere near as "close to right", as the PMTS. For me there was no point in reinventing the wheel, so to speak. I'd rather build on what has already been done, and modify it to my own purposes.
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Re: Is this a good start for a beginner?

Postby SlowSteady » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:05 pm

kirtland wrote:SlowSteady, I'm impressed with the success you had there.

Thanks.

For me there was no point in reinventing the wheel, so to speak. I'd rather build on what has already been done, and modify it to my own purposes.


Yes, that's exactly what I had in mind. Modifying to my own purposes. I'm not getting the sense that modifying anything is going to be well received here. I have read another related method cover to cover since I last posted, and liked it, though PMTS still seems more technically precise and correct. I don't have the impression that many members here have much experience in the trenches with the kind of kids I work with, so I can't expect them to really understand the constraints, but that's cool. This has still been a great experience learning of PMTS, and I look forward to the books and videos, as well as the huge snowfall coming to save the season in the Northeast.

Happy skiing everyone!
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Re: Is this a good start for a beginner?

Postby ToddW » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:01 pm

SlowSteady,

The issue is that PMTS is an organic whole and all the parts are more tightly intertwined that they seem on the first, second, or twentieth reading. (Counteracting enhances fore-aft. Being forward greatly increases LTE tipping leverage. More tipping requires more of the other essentials. and so on.) PMTS and most other instructional approaches just don't mix or "blend" very well. If you try to blend, you are likely to get some modest performance boost but only a small fraction of what you'd get with a true PMTS approach.

Having said that, PMTS is not a rigid, lock-step progression. instructors who have drunk deeply from the font of PMTS knowledge do personalize their approach to PMTS instruction. In fact, this diversity of instruction approaches within the PMTS umbrella is why groups at Harb Ski Systems camps switch coaches half-way through the week.

Teaching a PMTS lesson requires careful training on the instructor's part. There are several green level instructors on this forum. They ski, analyze skiing, and explain skiing at a level far higher than your average big ski resort instructor. Blue and Black instructors are quantum leaps beyond that. Black instructors are among the top few instructors in the world. The first two books are dedicated to the proposition that anyone can ski with the movements of an expert skier. It follows that even the lowest level PMTS lesson is taught by someone who knows and can teach the movements of an expert skier (on green, blue, or black terrain as indicated by the pin level.)

Only you can decide if the delayed gratification of becoming a real PMTS instructor is worth the short-term cost to you.

Happy skiing to you too ... and enjoy the coming powder day!
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Re: Is this a good start for a beginner?

Postby MonsterMan » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:40 pm

I have read another related method cover to cover since I last posted and liked it,


Then go to their forum and don't waste the time of people here.

If you want help here, be humble, do what is suggested, and report back with video. The pmts is based on facts and is logical. Keep the emotion out of it.

This is a pmts forum.
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Re: Is this a good start for a beginner?

Postby A.L.E » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:31 am

Some video re the simple power of the "phantom" tipping movement of the inside ski.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-A7Zw-6 ... Q&index=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s9qBIQt ... Q&index=20
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Really?

Postby SlowSteady » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:42 pm

Monster man: I think that was totally uncalled for. I hear you're a great skier and instructor. Therefore you are being very generous taking any time to offer advice, but I'm not being rude to you. I think I've been very humble, though I've appeared to be saying some outrageous things in a few posts. Those were all due to misunderstanding a few PMTS terms as I am studying and learning, plus a little excitement at having discovered PMTS for the first time. I know what sounded cocky, and I'll apologize for that unintended offense. If you are moderating this forum, are you asking me to leave the forum? Then please cancel my account, delete my posts and email me an explanation, otherwise...I kind of like it here.

BTW, I have the videos and books now and I'm working through them carefully and starting to get an idea why you are all so justifiably proud and protective of HH's teaching system. I think that was the advice I was given. And as I said before, I'll post video when I have a question, as I did on this thread.
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