MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby lordan5 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:30 am

Hi guys,

I'd like to ask you for some advice, as from what I see of myself in these videos, I can't help feeling that I have found me a rather strange way of skiing.
I am the guy in blue/white jacket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpRjQebxd9I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXpaGRnu ... e=youtu.be

Regards from Czech republic :)
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby kirtland » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:06 pm

What advice are you looking for? If it is how to change your skiing to PMTS movements, I'll just say PMTS turns are started with the opposite moves, that is in the direction of the inside of the turn, rather than to outside of the turn, Other can be more specific but it is explained well in the beginning of Anyone Can be an Expert Skier 1. If your question is about what you are currently doing, I am old enough to recognize that style and remember when that was the epitome of recreational skiing in the 1950's and 60's. You are beginning your turns with a little rotation of the hips to the outside, also known as hip projection and coming back into balance in the middle and end of the turn with some counter rotation and angulation. (at least those were the terms used, when that style was taught) You are doing it on modern equipment so the results are a little different, because the skis and boots allow more grip at the end of the turn.
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby lordan5 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:31 pm

I guess I wanted to know why does my skiing look different :D Now I know why, but this leads to another question, where did I pick it up. 1960s are 30 years before I was born. My only explanation being, that since I never had proper training, it was some sort of natural progression.

If you could set me on track to something like PMTS movements I would be very grateful.

By the way, I am currently using short sl ski (155) and I am 180cm tall. Do you think I could benefit from different setup?
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby MonsterMan » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:50 pm

If you could set me on track to something like PMTS movements I would be very grateful.


but it is explained well in the beginning of Anyone Can be an Expert Skier 1


http://harbskisystems.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=14&flypage=flypage.tpl&option=com_virtuemart&cd=21&menu_id=53&s=2&vmcchk=1&Itemid=1

Buy or borrow this book, it has all you need to get on track.
"Someone once said to me that for us to beat the Europeans at winter sports was like Austria tackling us at Test cricket. I reckon it's an accurate judgement." Malcolm Milne
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby kirtland » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:45 am

lordan5, Your question, of why you learned to ski the way you do, or as you say why does it look differenent, and where did you pick it up? And where did you pick it up? Is a question I find interesting, because I have been interested in the history and evolution of skiing. I would conjecture that it is your assimilation of what you have seen others do, particularly in the way you start your turns and then ,what is more natural and facilitated by your equipment and probably natural athletic balance in the latter part of your turn. But as I said that is only conjecture.
I can only speak to the history of what the evolution of skiing was in the United States with some confidence, from this side of the Atlantic, it does not look like it was too different in
Europe. Virtually all of our traditional ski teaching, which now falls under the auspices of the PSIA (professional ski instructors of America) is a progression of Hannes Schneiders Arlberg method, which he created in 1924. It is based on learning a progression of turns that start with the snowplow (wedge turn) , Stem Christie and finally the parallel christie. All of these turns emphasize extending to unweight and rotating and steering to the outside of the turn to make the skis turn. Is that natural? I would argue it is not, it certainly isn't the way we turn when we walk, run or ice skate. But it was probably necessary with the long straight skis, poorly attached binding and leather boots in 1924.The Skiing of some of the great evolutionary skiers showed those movements were not necessary. To my knowledge one of the first to evolve was Dick Durrance and his 'dipsy doodle turn' for powder skiing, which was a retraction or flexing turn and moving to the inside of the turn rather than an extension turn and rotating to the outside. This happened in the 1930's. He was also an exceptional ski racer, but World War ll came at the peak of his career. He went on to influence
US skiing by building ski areas and bringing the FIS Skiing World Championships to Aspen, Colorado and the United States, in 1950.
Emile Allais also made some evolutions in skiing with counter rotation, but I would argue the one person to make the biggest difference in modern skiing was Toni Sailor. He went on to prove without a doubt the superiority of his skiing technique. His 3 Olympic victories at Cortina in 1956 were unprecedented and absolutely exceptional owing to the fact that he won the Giant Slalom by 6.2 seconds, Slalom by 4 seconds and Downhill by 3.5 seconds, something that has never seen ever since in such high level competitions. To watch video footage of him practicing in 1954 and 1955 is amazing in how modern his skiing is.
In spite of the changes in competitive skiing, over the years, in the United States and from what I can tell,most of the world, have held on to the outmoded archaic ski teaching system based on the Arlberg Technique. Why? That is a question for anthropologists. The consequence of it is, that is how most people have seen other people ski, or have been taught to ski. That is, extending to unweight, steering the outside leg and rotating to the outside of the turn, to turn the skis. Which are all extraneous unnecessary movements, particularly on modern equipment.
Harald Harbs PMTS is the only ski teaching system, I know of, that has made a consistent formal system that teaches modern expert skiing.
As to length of your ski. In my opinion a 155cm ski is short and limiting, a 170 cm is probably the most versatile length, short enough to make short turns and long enough to have some stability at speed. Particularly if you can move the binding for and aft, Tyrolia or Head and Atomic make bindings that do this, there are probably others.
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby lordan5 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:14 am

That was very interesting, especially the Sailer videos are quite astounding. I don't know what equipment did he have, but at the time most people here to my knowledge were glad to have metal edges on their skis, which makes it even more extraordinary.

I am sure my ski beginnings are with the wedge turn, although I can't say that there would be any people on the slope from which I could "learn" this progression. Most are skiing wide and praise fun carving. It just might just be a result of instruction once given to me, to keep feet close together.

The book sure looks interesting. But it is little hard to get by over here. In the official shop it is sold out and if it wasn't it would probably reach me when there won't be any more snow to try it on. So let me ask differently. Are there any mistakes that you could pinpoint or is it wrong on so many levels that I have to start anew?
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby arothafel » Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:49 am

Image

Toni Sailer
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby milesb » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:37 pm

Lots of good stuff available here- http://harbskisystems.com/web-lessons/p ... menu_id=74 .
View all the lessons.
Also try the slantboard stuff- http://harbskisystems.com/web-lessons/s ... menu_id=74
YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH78E6wIKnq3Fg0eUf2MFng
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby Skizoo » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:04 pm

lordan5 wrote:By the way, I am currently using short sl ski (155) and I am 180cm tall. Do you think I could benefit from different setup?


A 155CM ski is VERY short for someone 180CM tall which I calculate to about 5' 10", I would say that most here that are around your height would be on a 170 CM carving ski, no less than a 165 CM,
So, yes a longer ski would be more appropriate for your size, but it won't change the movements you are using. The ski isn't the trigger causing you to ski with certain movements nor is it the solution for improving how you ski. It's just a tool that is on the receiving end of the movements you initiate.
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby lordan5 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:57 am

Skizoo wrote:
lordan5 wrote:By the way, I am currently using short sl ski (155) and I am 180cm tall. Do you think I could benefit from different setup?


A 155CM ski is VERY short for someone 180CM tall which I calculate to about 5' 10", I would say that most here that are around your height would be on a 170 CM carving ski, no less than a 165 CM,
So, yes a longer ski would be more appropriate for your size, but it won't change the movements you are using. The ski isn't the trigger causing you to ski with certain movements nor is it the solution for improving how you ski. It's just a tool that is on the receiving end of the movements you initiate.


I didn't want to imply that I hope a different ski would change my skiing. The question was more of a sanity check. Today I finally got to try out my new elan slx 165, which I bought a week ago. It is an absolute marvel and since it is stiffer I was probably forced to be more dynamic, but I don't think it changed the way I ski in general. No footage though.

I went through the lessons, but all I was able to take from it was the phantom move. I might have misunderstood it or did something wrong, but it didn't do anything for me except loss of focus on other things. Emphasis on edging with the front outer edge of my soon to be inside ski didn't really change anything.

I can't help feeling that my skiing in the videos looks somewhat weird, but I can't figure out why. Skiing with feet together - check. Weight on the outside ski - check Skiing with upright body - check, Minimal amount of skidding - check (at least I think), Pole-planting (okay I suck at this, but does it do that much?)
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby milesb » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:14 pm

Of course you are going to lose focus, you are trying something new! However, EVERYONE on this site will tell you that when you tip that inside ski (forcefully and continuously) great things happen to your skiing. EVERYTHING else we do in PMTS is to support that free ski tipping. Free ski tipping is not the appetizer, salad, side dish, or dessert, it's the prime f'ing rib!
So keep at it!
YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH78E6wIKnq3Fg0eUf2MFng
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby kirtland » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:18 am

lordan5,
You are not alone, over the years, at this site I have seen people have a hard time understand what the tipping movements are, from the descriptions with words and All the demonstrations in the books and on the HSS site only show the movements with Ski Boots on. (the tipping board or plate demo has been deleted) (if I am wrong, somebody please correct me, and tell me where the demonstrations without a ski boot on, demonstrating lateral ankle articulation and the tipping board {not slant board} are) Ski boots cover up what is happening inside the boot and it looks like just the leg or knee is initiating the movement.

The key to tipping is what happens inside the boot and the articulation of the ankle. The only example I can find remaining is in the old 1995 article here: http://skiersynergy.com/blog-ski-instru ... ation-1995 I think you have to sign into this Jay's site to access it. Jay is a PMTS coach, who is very good at having different ways of explaining the movements.
Tipping is inverting and everting the foot at the ankle, see here : http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... A&dur=2163

from what I can tell, there is a wide range of ability in people, not only in range of motion, but also in strength and awareness of the movements. Personally, I don't have much range of motion, have weak strength in the muscles that articulate the ankles and did not have much awareness of the movements, until I went to one of the camps and kept asking for a clearer explanation of an exercise we were doing, of tipping without flexing. Diane Rogers (one of the Coaches), at the end of the day she took off her ski boot and demonstrated, her inversion and eversion, she has an incredible degree of movement. Consequently I used my tipping board more, with resistance and have increased the strength, range of motion and awareness some.
I am aware this description is a poor substitute for a demonstration but it is the best I can do, right now. So I will give a attempt to a verbal explanation. Step by step' In your video it looks like you ski, without very much flexing and with some weight on your inside and what should be the free ski. So the first thing to do, is to transfer all of your weight and balance to your outside ski, also known as the stance ski (this should be easier for you, than it is for most, because you have a narrow stance.) This is your downhill ski at the end of the turn. Now that you have all of your weight and balance on the outside ski, glide on it across the hill. To initiate the new turn, and to release from the previous turn, flex your stance leg by lifting it. Since you have removed the support of your old stance leg, your weight and balance should now be on your uphill ski or new stance ski, and on the little toe edge of that ski. Since your little toe edge is engaged you will not be able to steer it into the turn, (Harald calls this the
'Wedge Blocker" so to turn, tip your lifted foot, this will or should continue up your leg without a conscious effort, so your free leg will also tip down the hill, taking the rest of your body with it. The stance leg will follow. Since you already ski by finishing the turn, with some counteracting (your hips and torso angled the base of your skis), (if you concentrate on these movements so much that you lose your counter acting and let your hips and torso face the tips of your skis, then remember to have them face towards the base of your skis, when you are traversing, that would be downhill) so as you are tipping, when your skis reach flat with the snow, they will turn by brushing the snow until they line back up with your torso when you cross the fall line, and if you continue to tip and stay countered, they will engage and begin to carve. Now repeat. This is my explanation of the basic phantom turn, carved turns of different radius, powder turns, etc are a variation of this, with variations in timing, flexing, tipping, counteracting, and fore aft movements.

You should be able to find the books used on Amazon. Look here: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... rt+skier+1
and do a Ysearch for the other ones.
You can learn a lot in the off season using a tipping board and slant board. See here for slant board: http://harbskisystems.com/web-lessons/s ... menu_id=74

Also by using roller blades or Harb Carvers to practice.
Have fun.
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby lordan5 » Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:55 pm

Cheers kirtland, I will try this the next time I hit the slopes. I think I got the gist of it, although there is one thing I can't understand. Why would I put weight at the end of the turn on the little toe edge of my inside ski.
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby oggy » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:47 pm

Hi Lordan,

kirtland already answered your question:
Since your little toe edge is engaged you will not be able to steer it into the turn, (Harald calls this the 'Wedge Blocker")


In other words, if your inside ski is on the edge (little toe edge in this case), and weighted, you cannot step it out to make a wedge, which is what your default movement will be if you're coming from a traditional system.
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Re: MA of my somewhat strange skiing please.

Postby kirtland » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:52 pm

Getting the book Anyone Can be an Expert Skier I & II will elaborate on the sequence and explain some more about why to transfer to the old inside ski, when it is still on it's little toe edge and go on to explain variations. But another part of the reason of doing it his way is that it instills good habits and you control the turn from the very beginning, by transferring o the new outside or stance ski, it helps with always staying in balance, which results in skiing more smoothly with rounder turns and in better control. Rather than linked recoveries, where the skier hurries the beginning of the turn, tries to avoid the falline and is only in balance at the end of the turn. The basic movements are to Release, from the old turn, Transfer to the new outside ski and Engage the ski by tipping this ends up being abbreviated as a Mantra RTE. I don't want to make this confusing by stating too much information, but these movements are the basic movements, as you advance in your skiing, there are variations on these movements, in timing, and range of motion.
One thing I want to point out is that to make this work well, it is important that your old inside ski be held back under your hips enough that when you transfer your balance to it, you can feel the ski edge on the pad of your foot right behind your little toe, not to the outside your arch and definitely not towards your heel. If you have a hard time getting a sense of where this is and how to sense it , then do sideslips down the hill, standing on only your uphill ski's little toe edge, moving fore and aft until you get a sense of where that spot is. When you are on that spot, with the little toe edge of the inside ski of the old turn engaged, when you tip with the little toe edge of your other foot, the skis will flatten and turn effortlessly, it takes patience to let it happen, with some concentration and faith. that it will happen, because this is the point you have always added some rotation or steering, to make the skis turn. The hardest part is resist steering or rotating with your leg and hip, It is called Phantom turn, because it so is hard to see what is making the skis turn, when there is no perceptible steering or rotation. .
Have Fun. Kirt
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