Harb Carvers

[bejes]

I have the pro model. But I wouldn't think they weigh a lot more? They're just a bit longer and higher?
Perhpas we need classifieds: used carvers. Iwould like to get the comps.
I think there is about 4-5 pairs in aus. Hah, you think that the skiers on ski.com.au would be interested! They only talk about everything except actual skiing technique.

Thanks John.

[*SCSA]

There's a discussion going over on epic about the Carvers. In particular, Tom B. claims that SkiSynergy is wrong, that the Carvers can be steered.

No way.

I spent 2 days on them. While I'm no Carver expert, I know for sure that if you try to steer the Carvers, you'll end up sunny side down.

This goes back to people making sweeping judgements about PMTS without actually taking a camp or being a certified instructor. It just ain't right.

Tom, if you're reading this, show up and put some Carvers on. If you can steer them, I'll buy you lunch.

[John Mason]

silly - skiersynergy also says they can be steered

HH said they can be steered and showed us so at the camp.

Just because they can be, doesn't mean they need to be or should be.

they resist steering because of the lateral friction they have, just like skis that are carving, but that doesn't mean you can't steer them.

[*SCSA]

Oops.
Well, I guess that shows you what I know.

When I tried to steer them, I fell on my arse.

Looks like time has passed me by. That's good. It's about time.

[*SCSA]

I guess I have to be ready now, for the inevitable. My own peers, bitching at me about my turns. It's bound to happen.

Sorry man, skiing is about freedom, do what makes you happy. I happen to love skiing bumps, off-piste, tree lines.

Carving? I just don't have any desire to ski groomers, I'm sorry.

[Hobbit]

John,

I was there in the carvers camp in the same group with you, but my recollection of events is different.
HH was trying to show the wedge entry turn on carvers as a joke. His outside foot was so unstable and kind of rattling terribly.
The whole thing resembled a ride of the supermarket cart wirth the broken wheel.
You've got to be at HH level of skills to even try this trick

[John Mason]

We are remembering the same thing. I'm not saying it's pretty. Steering carvers is ugly - disrupts balance - it's hard to do - - but you can do it.

Harald was showing us that in fact you can steer them. Not that you'd want to or need to.

As SCSA points out, more often then not, doing it or skidding them in general will put you down on that black ice real fast.

I was out with mine again today and related to TomB's post I tried direct steering for the fun of it. You have to pivot real hard but they can be made to tighten a turn that way. It's just far far far easier to just pressure them more and tip them, then they turn you. (sounds familiar doesn't it?)

[SkierSynergy]

Just a clarification. My comments on Epic were as follows:

[steering, twisting, pivoting] ". . . These are aspects of skis that Harb Carvers purposely do not attempt to simulate and it is what makes them so effective for learning. Skis allow you to be sloppier with your technique. They will forgive an enormous amount of steering, twisting, and rotation and it is harder to feel the presence of these movements on skis. Harb carvers do not respond effectively to steering or rotating. Everthing must be done by lateral tipping, independent leg flexion for weight transfer and CM movement, and complimenting upper body movements. "

You can steer and twist, but I find there is a lot of negative feedback from the carvers in both performance, feel and confidence when you steer or twist. At best it doesn't help and just wears your wheels. At worst, it is scary and dangerous. This is what is good about them in my opinion.

The response on epic was that it is impossible for inline skates to turn by just tipping. The belief was that you must steer or they wouldn't turn.

[*SCSA]

A real sore spot with me is the idea of steering. You guys gotta remember. I took a lotta beatings over steering. It was my second pet peeve once no one would engage with me on wedging anymore. "Don't talk to him, he's out there".

I don't believe the idea of steering belongs anywhere, in ski teaching. The only evidence I had "back then", was my own experiences, which of course were fueled by...really good snowboarder tools. I didn't have reinforcments, any kind of posse to back me up, like I do now. I was locker room fodder. Still am.

Can I steer my skis? Yes. I can rotate my thigh downhill or uphill, get my skis to turn just fine. Do I want to ski that way? No way. It's so much easier -- easier on my body, easier to understand -- to tip. Tipping, not steering, is how skiers should be taught. "Get rid of this word steering", I told anyone within distance.

The best example I could ever come up with, which of course no one paid any attention to -- "Oh there's SCSA, all lit up -- again" was that steering is done in a car, with your hands.

I've stuck around a long time, waiting for redemption. I knew I was right then, smart guys and the carvers, are now proving it. Like Hobbit says. The carvers can be steered. But you know why I ended up on the pavement? From steering. The last 2 hours I had on those things, I was finally able to quit steering them, to tip them. When I tipped them, they responded so much differently. They felt good. When I steered them, it wasn't pretty. Like Hobbit says, they wobble.

Now, redemption is here. SkiSynergy has showed up, a few other smart guys. But the real kicker was when I went to http://www.snowperformance.com/blade.htm

Ski coaches, using the carvers.

"Praise be to Gawd".

Little by little, what I talked about "back then", is starting to ring true. The Primary movements are gaining ground. Stein -- that's right, Stein, is endorsing Clendenin now.

"Radar. Where does Clendenin get most of his stuff?". "Eh, that'd be PMTS sir".

Clendenin and Scotty Brooksbank were the first two PMTS Black certified.

Over there on epic, more and more threads are PMTS friendly now. I'm reading stuff over there now and no one is frying PMTS. Sure. There's always some numbskull who'll pop in just to pop off. But they're starting to look pretty stupid now. Pulling the inside foot back is a clear example. No, PMTS didn't invent the move. But guess what? Before PMTS came along, no one was talking about it. Go do a search on it. You'll find way more posts against the idea, then you'll find posts possibly agreeing with the idea. Now, you'll find posts in favor of it. Pulling the inside foot back is just now, being taught in PSIA clinics.

"Radar. When did this guy Harald start teaching pulling the inside foot back?". "About 1997 sir".

Who's your daddy now?

I can see the day -- and it's closer than you think -- where you'll read more PMTS related stuff on epic, than anything else.

The old PSIA numbskulls are being driven back. "Back. You swine's". We are starting to prove them wrong. Guess what part 2? The revolution is being lead by students of skiing. Not, teachers of skiing.

The Primary movements, not wedging or steering, are where it's at. Brian Wilson says it good. "I wanna be where it's at". Anybody who says anything else, doesn't know jack.

Back to my cave now.

[Guest]

The response on epic was that it is impossible for inline skates to turn by just tipping. The belief was that you must steer or they wouldn't turn.

I was also under the impression that, theoretically, it should be impossible to turn Carvers, or any skates, just by tipping. They are just stationary inline wheels, not a bendable ski with sidecut too.
A ski turns when it is tipped on edge and then weighted so that it decambers. The shape of the deformed sidecut of the ski when its camber is reversed as it is pressed onto the snow is what makes it turn - and why you definately don't have to (and shouldn't) steer skis on snow. But, I couldn't see how this dynamic could take place with Carvers. It also seems to me, when I use my Carvers, that I have to twist a little at the ankle and sort of pull them through. It also looks to me like others are doing the same (even Diana in the clips).
Now, again, I am not at all questioning proper/efficient skiing technique - which is definately PMTS non-steering etc., I am only questioning whether the carvers really foster this perfectly (not counting their advantage over regular inline skates in that they have two rows and must be tipped - at least for sure fostering good/full tipping).
I asked this question in emails to Harald; Jay; and even Peter (who just passed it onto HH) but received no answers - very discouraging, if not suspicious.
John Mason answered me several weeks back that it has been established that inline skates do not require steering, and that there are webpages discussing it. I temporarily accepted this, even though he was not able to site those references, because I have noticed him to be an intelligent and carefully analytical exposer of many things PMTS. Many others, like in the above posts, claim that their experience supports this. But, again, my experience does not. I would really appreciate any scientific explainations or references of such to attest to the facts - and it will only help the general "cause".
By the way, I also find Carveing creates much more wear and tear on my body as compared to real skiing (predominately during the uphill skate phase). They are heavy, and the uphill skate, besides creating more than usual hamstring work, causes some extra movement inside the boot. I find the whole experience painful on the joints and lower leg, as compared to skiing.
I have gone back to bicycling as my summer keep in shape activity, leaving Carvers for, at best, fall ski specific preperation. But, I am still open to see things differently.
Thanks.

[RadRab]

Bs"D
Sorry forgot to sign in above.

[danny]

all,

If anyone is interested, here is a link to an article re. the physics of single track vehicles (motorcycles in this case).

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Tyres/TYRES.htm

At least to me (long time motorcyclist with some roadracing background) it seems obvious how Carvers can simulate both the side cut effect (park 'n ride) and ski bending (when lean angles and slip angles (wheel noise) peak during a turn). As far as inline skates needing steering, that just seems weird to me, maybe it's a biomech thing I dunno. Bones & muscles are usually somthing I just think about protecting from being broken or scraped off my body.

[Hobbit]

RadRab,

There is a thread on this forum discussing how the inline skates turn

[RadRab]

Bs"D
Thank you Danny and Hobbit. I read through most of those links (I certainly am not the first or only one to ask this question), but I can't say that I undrstood everything.
It seems that the main explaination (garnered mostly from HH's post and the motorcycle one) has to do with "camber thrust" and actual wheel deformation. I understood the latter to mean a sort of mini decambering dynamic - like tiny decambered skis in the contact patch of the wheel, but this could be off. Also, HH speaks of a differential between the front and rear wheels - that was very interesting news to me - as in the following quote from him: "The front wheel sets a different radius than the back wheels; this is proved by the wheel marks left on the pavement. Each track left by the Harb Carvers has two lines, one from the front wheel and one from the back wheels. The front wheels describe a smaller arc; the back wheels a slightly larger arc. It?s the force developed from the front and back wheels working in unison that allows the Carvers to turn and skid through a turn.".
Although I didn't understand the skidding part, and how that is ok. Either way, I think I am finally willing to let this one go, and trust that HH didn't put something out there that has to be steered or skids in the sense of a ski skidding. I also got from his post there how much the tipping requirement of the Carvers really is the main issue.
I also related to his comment: "Momentum is the secret to getting the skiing feeling on the carvers.". I do find that when the space allows some speed that they really do crank. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't fooling myself w/ some steering. I guess not, understand it or not.
Now if we could only have a lift built on some wide carless hill in every city...

[SkierSynergy]

There is one unofficial tram in Portland already used by skaters and one in the works.

The first is the local transit train (MAX). It goes from downtown up the west hills for about 1-2 miles. Longboard skateborders use it on a couple of unoficial skate nights. You buy a ticket good for the evening and ride up and skate down one of several secret neighborhood routes. They do this into the early morning. It got so popular and rowdy that they placed restrictions on the stops.

Oregon Health sciences University in Portland will also be building a large tram from the river to the main campus in the west hills. This could also mean several miles of carving, given the right route and time. Who knows how that will play out, but it could mean 30 person tram rides for a few cents and carving like crazy.