Interesting experience with a PSIA instructor...

[jmdhuse]

I went skiing by myself this last weekend (living in Arizona, my local choices are limited) and decided that I needed to take a lesson because I wanted someone more objective than myself to watch how I was skiing and to offer some coaching. Of course, being as there aren't any PTMS insructors available, I got an hour with a guy on the training staff at the resort (Sunrise Ski Park).

I told him that I wanted to work on less skidded, more carved turns, and he did a good job of isolating what I was doing wrong and helping me find the right feeling in my feet to initiate and carry a good carve all the way through the turn. My main learning was to keep my weight more forward and feel the pressure on the big toe and pad (front) of my foot on the outside ski. As I started to understand this better my turns got better and my confidence in carrying more speed improved as well.

We had an interesting discussion about learning progression and he told me that "they" no long teach beginning skiers with the wedging style, but try to take advantage of the turning ability of shaped skis and teach parallel right from the start.

Anyway, I was leery at first to take a lesson from a non-PTMS instructor, but I ended up feeling like I had learned some valubable stuff that was not at odds with how I understand PTMS...

Regards, Jon.

[Pierre]

Jon, I am glad that you had a good lesson with someone from PSIA. You probably would with me as well. I will tell you that recently I had the opposite experience.

I took a recertification clinic to keep my PSIA level III cert current. The clinician leader, a member of the education comittee tore me appart for my known fondness of direct to parallel methods and known leanings towards HH.

He had me demo some direct to parallel stuff. In each case he would ride a stance ski and tip the free foot while running a straight line right across the slope. He used his ability to do what I had said while running an intentional straight line across the slope as proof that direct parallel methods were biomechanically flawed and did not guarantee a student would learn to turn. In addition he said that pulling back the inside foot guaranteed divergence and the inside hip dropping back in every turn.

He then showed his interpetation of pathways to parallel. His first move was from a straight glide to steer the stance ski around the inside ski big toe edge that produced a straight inside ski and wedged outside ski ahead of the inside ski. He then said do the same thing only keep the inside tip even with the outside tip. On easy terrain this definitely produced a nice turn with the inside hip forward that I could not deny. His next move was release from a traverse. He squared up the tips and brought the uphill hip across the skis towards the new inside ski tip. This produced a very nice release. He then took it into a garland and finally into an open parallel turn. His nice open parallel turn had no wedge, was nicely spaced in a fairly wide stance and produced a nicely skidded turn. It also clearly showed rotation of the new outside hip and upper body to start the turn. This is also precisely what he taught.

My comments were that yes this produced a very nice looking turn but that rotation is the only method that guarantees a turn without intent. The difference he showed was not that direct parallel was fundementally flawed but that what it showed was his intent not to produce a turn and rotate the hip back. This is something that is key in direct to parallel. We don't have to teach something that is going to happen as a natural result of intent. That is like teaching someone to breath.

I used his method to illustrate the opposite. Since I could not help but turn with his method and he could intentionally not turn with mine I used it as proof that rotation produces unintended turning forces that cannot be controlled precisely because intent had no effect on stopping the turn. I said that both of us produced beautiful nice turns but that we had the bag of tricks to make it all happen already that that his pathway took a long time to learn to control the unintended turning forces.

He insisted that moving the new outside hip forward and across was not rotation but proper release of the skis that results in a turn in the correct direction due to the CM being moved down hill.

He parted with asking if I had learned something an understood much better the mechanics behind good skiing. I answered yes, very definitely and it was true.

In the past I have been very critical of Harald's interpretation of current PSIA thinking but I have to tell you I was having a very difficult time hanging onto that idea in this clinic.

[SLAVA]

You know, you can delete your own posts ? view your post and click on button with ?x?on the right of your screen)
It?s not too late to delete your doubles, triplse ?

[SLAVA]

My main learning was...and feel the pressure on the big toe and pad (front) of my foot on the outside ski.

I would be really careful with this stuff. Concentrating on big tow of stance ski may lead you eventually to have ?big tow dominant? in your skiing.

I would concentrate on tipping action of free foot, big tow of stance foot will fallow.

My main learning was to keep my weight more forward...

Did he actually explain you HOW to kip your weight forward?

You can hear this fraise from instructor very often:? keep your weight forward!?

The problem with this is that most people has no clue what to do to keep their weight forward.
Therefore common mistake seen often ? banding upper body in the waist.

To keep your weight forward tack your free foot back at the beginning of each turn (so both bots are even) and try to keep it there.
It will adjust your fore/aft balance properly.

[John Mason]

Your experience shows that with effort even an experienced PSIA clinic giver and ski with no kinetic chain.

Just release all hip rotator tension, embrace independent direct control of your hip rotators, and you can ski whatever you want with no effect from inside foot tipping.

This is much harder to do, much skeletally weaker, but can produce what looks like a decent turn.

This reminds me a lot of doing pivot slip drills. You can do them with total balance with passive rotation components by just shifting your fore/aft balance or you can do them with active rotation. These can look almost the same but are done in a totally different fashion by the skier.

So, I'd say the beginning drill in Ski the Whole Mountain would elude this clinician? Sounds like without an active outside steering input he would not be able to start a turn.

The other fascinating thing about your post is that this clinician was ready for you and planned to show you the truth and error of your ways while basically denying that a kinetic chain exists.

I wonder if he realizes biomechanically that direct hip rotator turning vs co-contracted hip rotators define to contradictary and mutually exclusive ways of skiing and are at the heart of why some people have never felt the effect of the basic phantom move.

---------------------------------------------

To the first poster - echoing Slava - the problem with outside leg big toe focus is that's the easy ski to engage and focusing on that often will leave your inside free foot in the way. Better to focus on free foot tipping then be aware and feel the outside foot roll and engage because of that inside free foot action.

I was taught that keep the weight forward on my first lesson (not pmts) to feel pressure on my shins at all times or the skis don't engage. Later I was taught that the whole range of fore/aft balance is a tool for your use and a centered position is your 'home base'. You control this easily by your free foot position with the need to correct the simply geometry of one turn ending and a new turn starting by bringing the free foot back as your old turn releases (old outside ski) or you will not be centered at the start of your new turn. (this is such common sense when you draw it on paper - if you don't do this your parallel shins will not be parallel as you enter your new turn)

One of the most important keys to carving is staying connected with your skis and the snow through transition. Otherwise the top of the turn will not be carved, your max G's won't be at the apex of the turn but will drift to the last 1/3 of the turn, etc.

Dang - I got to go ski again. Been too busy at work this year for much skiing. Sorry for rambling.

[ssh]

jmdhuse, I'm glad you had a productive time with that instructor. I would suggest, as SLAVA and John Mason have, that you focus more on you LTE of the inside ski, although sometimes it is useful to feel the pressure on the outside foot so that you know that you're pressuring that foot/ski well.

Pierre, proof that there are annoying know-it-alls in PSIA. But, we all knew that, didn't we?

(This as a PSIA cert, btw, not a PMTS cert.)

[Harald]

We don?t teach pressuring the big toe under the ball of the foot in PMTS, because it a weak position. The big toe, at the ball of the foot is supported and held by the calf muscle, which is weak compared to the skeletal alignment achieved when standing fore/aft with the hip forward and pressure on the whole foot. Ball of the foot forward positions are temporary, and a Band-Aid, not part of long lasting ski development fundamentals.

Ball of the foot pressuring clearly directions skiers to become dominate big toe skiers, without release of the stance ski. I keep reminding skiers, perceptions are never reality in your skiing. Even though it might feel good at the time, it may be way off the mark. If a PMTS instructor saw your releases and skiing, you would get true feedback and direction in your skiing you so desire.

[Harald]

Ssh, If I had a dime for every pampas, over bloated, incompetent, PSIA examiner I ran into during my years traveling and training for the Dee Team, I?d be rich. There are some very good people, and some are very good skiers, but unfortunately they don?t even know the difference between real skiing and PSIA skiing. At least none spoke up while I was there. The system and the background for skiing understanding just aren?t accurate, productive or functional. They spurt clich?s and old dogma, rather than precise movements that a skier striving for a better experience deserves.

[jmdhuse]

You know, you can delete your own posts ? view your post and click on button with ?x?on the right of your screen)
It?s not too late to delete your doubles, triplse ?

I didn't know that - Thanks!

[jmdhuse]

My main learning was...and feel the pressure on the big toe and pad (front) of my foot on the outside ski.

I would be really careful with this stuff. Concentrating on big tow of stance ski may lead you eventually to have ?big tow dominant? in your skiing.

I would concentrate on tipping action of free foot, big tow of stance foot will fallow.

My main learning was to keep my weight more forward...

Did he actually explain you HOW to kip your weight forward?

You can hear this fraise from instructor very often:? keep your weight forward!?

The problem with this is that most people has no clue what to do to keep their weight forward.
Therefore common mistake seen often ? banding upper body in the waist.

To keep your weight forward tack your free foot back at the beginning of each turn (so both bots are even) and try to keep it there.
It will adjust your fore/aft balance properly.

To the question of keeping my weight forward - it was partly a matter of posture - I was pretty rigid over my skis and partly keeping my hands in proper position in front of me, instead of at my sides. I think he saw that I was skiing kind of "defensively", that is, shying away from the downhill. I was very flat-footed in my boots, and as I was coming around the turn my weight would shift back to my heels, and my ski would skid out to kill the carve and shorten the turn. His observation of how I was turning was the information I needed to help me stay better balanced and ride the curve all the way.

As much as I could (based on what I've been reading and watching about PTMS) I tried to marry his observations of to the PTMS approach, but I don't know for sure that I'm getting it right...

I think I'm one of those people Harald talks about who are not very kinesthetically aware - it takes me a long time to connect what it feels like with what it really is.

Jon.

[jmdhuse]

We don?t teach pressuring the big toe under the ball of the foot in PMTS, because it a weak position. The big toe, at the ball of the foot is supported and held by the calf muscle, which is weak compared to the skeletal alignment achieved when standing fore/aft with the hip forward and pressure on the whole foot. Ball of the foot forward positions are temporary, and a Band-Aid, not part of long lasting ski development fundamentals.

Ball of the foot pressuring clearly directions skiers to become dominate big toe skiers, without release of the stance ski. I keep reminding skiers, perceptions are never reality in your skiing. Even though it might feel good at the time, it may be way off the mark. If a PMTS instructor saw your releases and skiing, you would get true feedback and direction in your skiing you so desire.

I'm not so sure I was as much pressuing with the ball of my foot as much as I was noticing that the pressure wasn't back on my heels, which is what was making my ski skid out half-way through the turn. The instructor helped my eliminate the hip rotation, which I think must be a step in the right direction. I will have to concentrate and pay attention to this the next time I get on the snow. I would love to have a session with a real PTMS instructor, but I'm not in a position right now to go to where one is.

Do it yourself is hard!

Thanks, Jon.

[jmdhuse]

Your experience shows that with effort even an experienced PSIA clinic giver and ski with no kinetic chain.

Just release all hip rotator tension, embrace independent direct control of your hip rotators, and you can ski whatever you want with no effect from inside foot tipping.

This is much harder to do, much skeletally weaker, but can produce what looks like a decent turn.

This reminds me a lot of doing pivot slip drills. You can do them with total balance with passive rotation components by just shifting your fore/aft balance or you can do them with active rotation. These can look almost the same but are done in a totally different fashion by the skier.

So, I'd say the beginning drill in Ski the Whole Mountain would elude this clinician? Sounds like without an active outside steering input he would not be able to start a turn.

The other fascinating thing about your post is that this clinician was ready for you and planned to show you the truth and error of your ways while basically denying that a kinetic chain exists.

I wonder if he realizes biomechanically that direct hip rotator turning vs co-contracted hip rotators define to contradictary and mutually exclusive ways of skiing and are at the heart of why some people have never felt the effect of the basic phantom move.

---------------------------------------------

To the first poster - echoing Slava - the problem with outside leg big toe focus is that's the easy ski to engage and focusing on that often will leave your inside free foot in the way. Better to focus on free foot tipping then be aware and feel the outside foot roll and engage because of that inside free foot action.

I was taught that keep the weight forward on my first lesson (not pmts) to feel pressure on my shins at all times or the skis don't engage. Later I was taught that the whole range of fore/aft balance is a tool for your use and a centered position is your 'home base'. You control this easily by your free foot position with the need to correct the simply geometry of one turn ending and a new turn starting by bringing the free foot back as your old turn releases (old outside ski) or you will not be centered at the start of your new turn. (this is such common sense when you draw it on paper - if you don't do this your parallel shins will not be parallel as you enter your new turn)

One of the most important keys to carving is staying connected with your skis and the snow through transition. Otherwise the top of the turn will not be carved, your max G's won't be at the apex of the turn but will drift to the last 1/3 of the turn, etc.

Dang - I got to go ski again. Been too busy at work this year for much skiing. Sorry for rambling.

Hmmm, there very much was an error in my ways in that I was skidding when I should have been carving, and he helped me stop rotating from the hip and causing the skid. I had discovered on my own that a skid was an effective way to control speed, albeit an inefficient way. As I believe I understand from studing PTMS, I was always starting my turns by lightening and tilting the ankle that would become the inside ski (starting from straight down the fall line), even though he talked about rolling both knees to one side or the other to get the skis tilted to their edge. We practiced making turns and then going back to look at the tracks to see that the inside leg was indeed tracking along parallel to the outside leg and to see where in the turns there was carving and where there was skidding.

Thanks, Jon.

[Ken]

We don?t teach pressuring the big toe under the ball of the foot in PMTS, because it a weak position. The big toe, at the ball of the foot is supported and held by the calf muscle, which is weak compared to the skeletal alignment achieved when standing fore/aft with the hip forward and pressure on the whole foot. Ball of the foot forward positions are temporary, and a Band-Aid, not part of long lasting ski development fundamentals.

Is big toe pressure necessary with a sloppy boot fit? (I know, just compounding problems, but sometimes you have to get somebody down the hill.)

If I had a dime for every pampas, over bloated, incompetent, PSIA examiner I ran into during my years traveling and training for the Dee Team, I?d be rich.

A fellow I used to work with said that he'd like to buy folks like that for what they're worth,
and sell them for what they think they're worth.


Ken