High angles at slow speeds?

[Max_501]

How slow can you go and still get big angles on your SuperShapes or other sl skis?

[milesb]

Funny, I spent a good portion of a ski day last month trying to do just that.
The key thing for me was keeping the free foot off the snow during the high C so that my balance would not fall onto it. However, I'm pretty sure my angles were pretty small while going slow.

[SLAVA]

Max,

I can go very slow (jogging speed) and still make very tight turn around the pole and without pole leaving the original point of contact.

Then slower the speeds then more counter balance you have to have to get higher angles

[Max_501]

Max,

I can go very slow (jogging speed) and still make very tight turn around the pole and without pole leaving the original point of contact.

Wow, that's a tight turn. Is this a pure carve or a brushed carve?

[SLAVA]

it is brushed.

i doubt anyone can do Pure carve turn that tight at slow speed

Physic against it. Maybe on very short skis though

[milesb]

SLAVA, a truth I have learned in skiing is don't think something is not possible just because you can't do it.

The physics are not against it as long as the balance skills are there. I have seen a very skilled snowboarder doing it.

[rl1zczi]

It can definitely be done. A lot of counter, a little wider stance(for low speed balance), and aggressive tipping with both skis on parallel edges. The turn takes a little longer to develop and therefore requires excellent balance(which precludes many skiers from success at this) as you'll be getting no help from gravity and centrifugal force during the turn. The shorter the skis, the easier it is.

[SLAVA]

First of all I?m apologizing not to make it clear at first place.

I said:
?I doubt anyone can do Pure carve turn that tight at slow speed?


And I should say:
?I doubt anyone can do Pure carve turn on skis with radius 15.5 m with travel speed less than 1.5m/h that tight( 2-3 m radius turn) at slow speed.

SLAVA, a truth I have learned in skiing is doing think something is not possible just because you can't do it.

I?m glad you have learned that Milesb, because I was born with that knowledge.

Because I was born with that knowledge I progress from no skiing in 2000 to a very advanced skier at 2006, and was able to score my Green level of PMTS exam to beyond of what it was tested for last season In all 3 aspects.

Back to physics.

In order to perform a pure carve 2-3 m radius turn on skis that have turn radius of 15.5 m and stiff as a hell you gotta bend them to the hella of amount.
Well considering that I travel with speed less or = 1.5m/h and have almost no momentum I can?t bend my skies to necessary amount for that radius of turn "pure carved"

So I really have 3 choices:

1. make a brushed carved turn
2. gain 30 - 40 lb so I can bend skies with my weight
3. Or?.. Become a skilled snowboarder since he?s only one who can do it.

A lot of counter, a little wider stance(for low speed balance),

The whole idea that you perform same movements and keep same width of your stance in all conditions at any speed.
That why practicing PMTS movements at slower speed is the hardest exercise.

[milesb]

You are correct, it might not be possible with skis of that radius. I believe carving snowboards have a side cut radius of about 8-9 meters.
That said, we have probably inspired that nut Pierre to spend his remaining time on snow this year trying to do this!

[Pierre]

You are correct, it might not be possible with skis of that radius. I believe carving snowboards have a side cut radius of about 8-9 meters.
That said, we have probably inspired that nut Pierre to spend his remaining time on snow this year trying to do this!

I notta nut milesb. I have watched this thread from the beginning and how its developed. At first I was waiting for the exaggerations but I have not seen any materialize.

I have already played around quite a bit with this and with different stance widths. There is a point at which its very difficult to go slower and make good carved turns. Although I can go very slow and still get suprisingly small carved turns its not slow jogging speed with 2-3m radius turns.

I have experimented and agree with Harb on keeping things fairly narrow for this type of turn. The wider stance and more counterbalance does not really cut it for dynamic turns. Although you can imitate high angle carve turns with a wide stance and big counterbalance your edge angles just don't match and the turns just do not flow.

The real key to those turns is a fairly narrow centered stance, going through a very good neutral, tipping movements of the free ski and shortening/retraction of the old stance ski in a very progressive fashion. You really have to turn into balance and not stability.

[milesb]

Although I can go very slow and still get suprisingly small carved turns its not slow jogging speed with 2-3m radius turns.

This is unacceptable, don't destroy my faith in you.

[rl1zczi]

A lot of counter, a little wider stance(for low speed balance),

The whole idea that you perform same movements and keep same width of your stance in all conditions at any speed.
That why practicing PMTS movements at slower speed is the hardest exercise.

A pure carve at slow speeds is possible, what your stating above is impossible. While its an admirable goal, don't be fooled into thinking that anyone can maintain the same width in ALL conditions and excel as a skier.

[John Mason]

Constraints of my comments below are:

1. we are talking pure carves - just two lines in the snow, no smudging at all
2. maximum ski edge angles at slow or even stopped speeds

There are only 3 ways to do this. 2 ways within PMTS and 1 way being taught a lot outside of PMTS.

Counterbalance - the c-shape of the body - will give you a zero speed edge angle. This is the main tool for low speed railroad turns. Stance width can be as narrow as you want.

Counter - this pointing of the hips to the outside of the turn will increase edge angles but normally with no speed and no counter will make you fall. At low speeds counter balance with counter will get you the most PMTS edge angles you can get.

Both of these ways work best with a normal functional stance (legs dangling out of their hip sockets).

The 'other' way:

We don't do this in PMTS because it's a weak skeletal position but you see it being taught all the time. You can widen your stance and then point your knees. This will get you angles and the skis will turn, but it's a bad habit to even start.

The third PMTS way to get edge angles but is not applicable in this discussion is via vertical seperation with both skis on the ground. Needless to say with no speed, this angle from inclination will not support you and you'll fall.

Thus, in PMTS we are left with counter and counterbalance for railroad type turns or very slow speed turns for pure carves. (or edging of the skis while not moving at all)

Here is a pic showing some nice parallel tracks from when I was teaching my nephew on his first day of skiing. This is very low speed and is pure carve:

http://www.fototime.com/CB35340AE3730BB/orig.jpg

[onyxjl]

Why is your nephew tucking his pants into his boots!? You should know better than that =P

Just kidding with ya.

I have introduced people to PMTS and had them making low speed arcs that looked a lot like those by just focusing on tipping the inside foot. When I am working on it, I start by tipping the foot as far as I can and adding in counter balancing a little bit at a time as the prying action of the foot moves me further to the inside of the turn.

It's important to not let counter-balancing overshadow getting the inside foot moved first. It's real easy to become "big-toe" dominant on that outside foot when counter-balancing is added in.

[SLAVA]

rl1zczi wrote:
A pure carve at slow speeds is possible, what your stating above is impossible. While its an admirable goal, don't be fooled into thinking that anyone can maintain the same width in ALL conditions and excel as a skier.

I value your opinion rl1zczi,
But I don?t change width of my stance do to speed or condition change. I always ski with narrow feet stance.
That?s how I was thought to ski by Harb Ski Systems Inc.

I?ve been in 7 camps at least with HH, Diana and his crew, plus 2 days of private with Harald and accreditation camp last season.

I NEVER EVER SEEN ANY OF COACHES IN HARB SKI SYSTMES INC TEACH WIDER STANCE FOR BETTER BALANCING NO MATTER WHAT SURCEMSTANCES ARE

So my answer is: Yes it is possible.