There are no stupid questions

[realskie]

Bill, first read the books, then make comments.

[realskie]

Fraser was rocked onto his heels, but not down, Yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Harald]

Bill, PMTS is a progression to Carving and movements that teach carving, if you read the pages you will find the answers you are looking for.

If you have the natural balancing skills and athletic ability, PMTS will allow any skier to become a carving skier in less than three days.

If you are more timid, you will not want to hook up the skis and carve right away. PMTS allows for this as well, yet it does not promote it as a technique.

Most skiers need to learn carving in a progressive fashion, as many people are not comfortable carving immediately, carving accelerates the skis, beginners rarely can handle this movement.
With PMTS you can go either way, or right down the middle, which we call brushed carving.

Depending on your ability and comfort with speed and balance PMTS provides for all abilities and needs, while providing movements you won't have to undo or unlearn.

[Harald]

You must forgive me for questioning your authenticity, as everyone knows who has read three pages of the books, either Expert 1 or 2, that PMTS is not about skidding or undoing movements. This is not even subtle; it hits you between the eyes like a cannon blast. Yes, I was questioning your validity.

[John Mason]

I'm only curious because it seems to me that a big selling point of the PMTS system is that inefficient techniques (such as the wedge) are never taught to the student, so the student never has to throw away old technique in favor of new, and never has to be deprogrammed of bad habits. However, if the PMTS system teaches students to use a skidded turn in the beginning stages it would seem to me that it is simple substituting such a turn for a wedge or stemmed turn, and the student would be back to having to discard and relearn techniques.

Am I wrong? This is a discussion forum, let's have a discussion.

Bill - you are still sounding odd here because your paragraph above is so misrepresentive. Giving the benefit of the doubt allow me to explain.

First, at the November Instructor camp we worked on - at a high level - on the top of copper - skidded turns of all things. But this was done in a PMTS fashion. One of the tests we were told you had to pass for PMTS certification was basically 180 degree linked turns in the length of a ski. If that's not a skid then nothing is. This type of turn has it's place in certain situations like steeps that you're not comfortable on or detuned skis and ice that your not able to hook up on etc as well as one way to do bumps.

Whether you skid or pure carve or anything on the contiumum in PMTS what makes PMTS different from the wedge turn in a foundational sense clear up to the top expert turns is that a wedge turn has no release. In PMTS whether your skidding or carving or any type of turn in between you have a release/transfer/engage.

In the first place a wedge by definition has both opposing edges engaged at the same time. That's not a good habit. Later, people move from that even when they have some semblence of parallel, you'll see on video like Jay's famous analysis of a demo team member, they still are on opposing edges at transition because the first movement of the new turn is still like the wedgers do it. They steer and engage the new outside ski to create the new turn. This is totally opposite of even what a day one beginner does in PMTS. In PMTS the about to be new inside ski is tipped and pressure lessoned to create the new turn - in other words it is released. The outside leg is simply stood on and balanced on and it passivily follows through the kinetic chain.

A lot of people think PMTS is all about and only about pure carved turns. It's not. It is about release/transfer/engage no matter what turn type you are trying to make. The RTE turn is quite different than what most people are taught and the way most people ski themselves.

Your post sounded like you were sniffing out a contradition. It's only your perception that PMTS is only about pure carves that creates the appearence of a contradiction. Think Release/Transfer/Engage and keep that theme in mind and re-read the books. You may be reading them with so much prior-think that you missed that foundation.

[Tommi]

Bill,

1st, I'm sorry your first try was knocked out, it's mainly due to the fact that there have been too many as***les here posting masses of crap. This forum is about how to implement and use PMTS. This is not for 'does it work'.

It does. It will take you only a couple of hours of coaching by a PMTS instructor to find that out. Or 10hrs of reading and self-coaching. Use video.

But, it will take you two years to really find out the beauty of this system. It's unique, really. You can not imagine the amount of working hours that must have been used to create the system, books, videos, progressions etc. The knowledge of the creators is up to WorldCup level.

PMTS is a sound system, which has possibilities that are almost unlimited.

Welcome and enjoy. Try to forget the rude welcome and find out the real skiing. Learn to know the fantastic nutzo family here. You can learn a LOT from them.

Let's fly below the radar! (as Heyoka would say..)

T2

PS I bought two (power)kites, i'll have some skiing speed on level terrain, too..

[tommy]

Bill,

I can't see your initial post/question, was it:

If there is a section of volume 1 or 2 that explains why it's important to learn a skidded turn before learning to carve please let me know.

If indeed that was your question, I've got hard time understanding the realskie comments: to me, the above question is a perfectly valid "newbie" question, without any "hidden agendas" involved. It took me quite a while to figure out how PMTS supports "non-pure-carved" (a.k.a brushed) turns...

The reason for teaching brushed turns at the beginning might be that you'd have hard time controlling your speed with "pure" carved turns (assuming that you'd actually be able to pull them off in the first place...)

I do feel sorry about the reception you got, but I guess you are aware of the _somewhat_ heated feelings, and their reasons, that's been around here recently...

Cheers,
T

[tommy]

Jeeez T2,

what a coincidence...! The nordics team up and fight back!

Good to see you onboard again - it's been a while!

--T1

PS: John, I forgot in my previous post: how about a new "top level thread": Newbie questions" ?

[jbotti]

Bill, I would like to try to answer your original question which I think I have pieced together from the ensuing commentary.

There really are two different ways to use a non carving approach on steeper terrain (or any terrain for that matter). Harald and PMTS advocates using the same movements that would be used in a high edge angle carved turn, except that the stance foot manitains a much less steep edge angle which causes more of a smear than a carve and gives speed control. It is important to note than in a turn of this nature the tails do not get displaced and move back up the hill.

This is in direct contrast to a skid based approach where the tails are displaced and move back up the hill in each turn.

In the PMTS smeared turn the same movements are used as in the full bore high edge angle race carve except for the relaxing of the stance foot (causing it to smear). All the other necessary elements remain in place as well (counter rotation, counter balancing, felxing to release and initiating by tipping the little toe edge).

In doing the other approach one is practicing a movement that is counter productive for carving (in fact the tail dislacement kills any ability to carve the upper portion of the turn). As well, one can produce this type of skidded, smeared turn without the essential elements of carving being in place.

The essential difference is that PMTS insists that you mainatin efficient form when you smear.

I think this is the difference you were asking about.

[Max_501]

Considering the fact that the race footage was used as evidence of the efficacy of the PMTS system, and that the racers weren't using the new equipment, I wondered if the techniques from volume one were better suited to skis that aren't as shaped as what I'm using now (Atomic Metron M11).

PMTS is geared for shaped skis. I ski on the Metron B5 which has the same shape as the M11 and PMTS movements work great for me.

[jclayton]

The point Harald makes in the first book is the same one in " The Athletic Skier " , i.e. racers ski differently to recreationals . Racers have used many PMTS movements for years , this is the most efficient way to ski on straight or shaped skis . However , on straight skis it requires an abnormal athletic prowess to do this .

Harald is a feisty guy , calls a spade a spade and is not politically correct when it comes to ski technique discussions . I'll put up with that ( one does get a bit tired of the blandness permeating the various medias anyway ) to get the knowledge .

Bill , Jiu Jistu today is a great martial art but there is a large component of flexibility , body type , disposition etc . Once one is aligned, ski technique is not , something works or it doesn't , for all .

[John Mason]

Bill -the Shaped Skis just make it all work better. The Racers on the straight skis depended on pressure that bent the skis to carve. This left true carving not accessible to people that couldn't create these pressures.


Part of the reason HH designed PMTS was because the shaped skis allow people to experience carving without the pressure. Now, with the shaped skis, just counterbalancing while going straight will make them carve a turn with no pressure at all.

[jclayton]

Funnily enough Bill I have just spent 10 days in Brazil but just avoiding the muggers and pistoleros in the northern state of Par? . Seriously the people are lovely but serious violence is always just around the corner . I spent time in villages away from the normal tourist areas .

I have been learning Aikido the last couple of years which is why your analogy caught my attention as it reminded me of when the 10th Dan Yoshimitsu Yamada comes over from New York to give seminars . He is a little like Harald in his firmness when teaching and if you have any doubts his performance , even in his rather portly state , will simply floor you . I also for many years have practised Karate , Thai boxing etc and would love to try BJJ but unfortunately am getting on a bit now and my back is paying for years of exuberance .

I have spent 16 years now skiing and went through all the various methods searching for someone who could get me skiing like the racers without the time to ski more than 2 or 3 weeks a year . I have never had the satisfaction I have had from Harald . This I think explains why many of us are quite partisan . We have seen all the old tips,tricks and bandaid efforts at teaching and they have not got us very far at all . His methods require quite a lot of hard work to master but I personally feel now the skys the limit , the door has been opened . I can now feel the skis knifing around the arc pulling G's with loads more control . I know where to go from here and what to work on , Idon't feel like a mushrooom , kept in the dark and fed on s**t .

By the way , probably the best thing you could do for yourself at this stage is to check your boots and get aligned . Balance is paramount .

[jclayton]

Funnily enough Bill I have just spent 10 days in Brazil but just avoiding the muggers and pistoleros in the northern state of Par? . Seriously the people are lovely but serious violence is always just around the corner . I spent time in villages away from the normal tourist areas .

I have been learning Aikido the last couple of years which is why your analogy caught my attention as it reminded me of when the 10th Dan Yoshimitsu Yamada comes over from New York to give seminars . He is a little like Harald in his firmness when teaching and if you have any doubts his performance , even in his rather portly state , will simply floor you . I also for many years have practised Karate , Thai boxing etc and would love to try BJJ but unfortunately am getting on a bit now and my back is paying for years of exuberance .

I have spent 16 years now skiing and went through all the various methods searching for someone who could get me skiing like the racers without the time to ski more than 2 or 3 weeks a year . I have never had the satisfaction I have had from Harald . This I think explains why many of us are quite partisan . We have seen all the old tips,tricks and bandaid efforts at teaching and they have not got us very far at all . His methods require quite a lot of hard work to master but I personally feel now the skys the limit , the door has been opened . I can now feel the skis knifing around the arc pulling G's with loads more control . I know where to go from here and what to work on , Idon't feel like a mushrooom , kept in the dark and fed on s**t .

By the way , probably the best thing you could do for yourself at this stage is to check your boots and get aligned . Balance is paramount .

[Bill Brasky]

Double post.