Changes edges not direction

[Harald]

http://www.harbskisystems.com/hhsite/up-down.htm


In case the text on the image is hard to read this is the same text.

Living on the wrong edges

To learn to carve with a ?High C? engagement, the edges have to be changed before the skis change direction. If you pick out a spot on the side of the slope at the end of the turn, use that point to aim your ski tips at, when you have your spot, don?t change the direction of the skis during the edge change, keep the tips pointing at your spot. This means release the old edges, go through flat, get on the new edges, do not change direction.

Skiers learn that skiing is about turning, but it isn?t, it?s about changing edges and letting the ski?s side cut take you around the turn. Remember the shaped ski should do the work. If you are changing direction of the skis before you engage, you are missing part of the turn arc. Engaging does not mean skidding to an edge at least not in PMTS. Worst; you are missing the real fun of skiing. Speed with control on any condition. If you miss part of a turn arc by skidding into the top of the turn, you have to make up for it at the end of the turn, which means a hard edge set or an up movement. Remember direction change before edge change and skidding to an edge angle are similar.

[Harald]

New post is up

[Belskisfast]

This is the drill Maria showed me a couple of weeks ago. In a traverse change edges...both skis...before changing direction or reaching the fall line.
This is for me the most difficult drill I have ever done. It is absolutely impossible without serious counterbalance. My success rate in linking 2 turns correctly is probably 10%. When I do get it at moderate speed the sensation is ...well... sensational!! It's like a fantasy WC race turn.
Hobbit says it so well with, "ask not what your counter can do for you, but what you can do for your counter." After a couple of days of working on this I am sorely sore. Obliques and core strength are the new workout focus.
Maria had me use the Ski Coach device with the clacking steel balls. Nice feedback when you are counterbalancing correctly...good for the rhythm.
I just received one from http://www.theskicoach.com and look forward to using it again. I am getting a sense that this skill set is a major breakthrough to the next level. It is not coming easy.

On another note the people on this forum are terrific. The brain trust is something to behold. Thank you all. I am learning so much. Not just about skiing either...thank you Joseph. The community is strong and HH has attracted all these first rate people with truth, talent, and the true love of skiing.

[Max_501]

Maria had me use the Ski Coach device with the clacking steel balls. Nice feedback when you are counterbalancing correctly...good for the rhythm.
I just received one from http://www.theskicoach.com and look forward to using it again.

On theskicoach.com website they say,

"When should I hear the audible ?clink??

The audible ?clink? should be heard 2/3 of the way around the turn."

Does this apply to PMTS or do we want to hear the 'clink' earlier?

[Pierre]

I buy this 100% with any kind of speed on most terrain but I am not sure I see how it could work on steep terrain at slow speeds. Are we talking about carving and turning in general here? I assume we are talking a learning situation on moderate terrain for this and not looking for exceptions.

This drill is quite difficult for most skiers because they are use to using some upper body movements to start their turns. Movements have to start at the feet without foot rotary or the upper body rotation. I have a tough time getting ski instructors to understand this. I have a far easier time getting the general public to understand this. Fancy that.

[Ken]

Looks like a market opportunity for a company like Innotek


Ken

[Candude]

"Living on the wrong edges"
Harald, you say to change edges not direction and the shape of the ski will do the work for you - sounds good, BUT ...

Doesn't that mean that you'll only ever do a turn that is the size of the ski sidecut (what the ski was designed to do). What if I want to do a turn that is smaller than the cut of my ski.

I found that to do this, I was having to push on the front of my boot to get the ski to change its turn shape, which then caused me to be out of balance and the tails would skid out. So, I find I need to stay more over top of the skis (less edge) and guide the ski to do the size of turn I want.

Comments?

[Max_501]

What if I want to do a turn that is smaller than the cut of my ski.

Comments?

You need to bend the ski more. As you pointed out you can do this by pressuring the the tips by pushing against the boots tongues. However, you can over pressure and break the tail lose.

Here are some things you can do. Tip more agressively, pull the uphill foot higher up (suck it up as Jay likes to say) and keep that uphill foot under you hips. Add counter balance and couter. Do all that and the skis are going to bend alot.

[Pierre]

"Doesn't that mean that you'll only ever do a turn that is the size of the ski sidecut (what the ski was designed to do). What if I want to do a turn that is smaller than the cut of my ski.

I found that to do this, I was having to push on the front of my boot to get the ski to change its turn shape, which then caused me to be out of balance and the tails would skid out. So, I find I need to stay more over top of the skis (less edge) and guide the ski to do the size of turn I want.

Comments?

Candude I think Harald is gone for a couple of days. You do not say what level of skier that you are. Are you at a stage where you are still lifting the inside ski or lightening the inside ski or are you trying to do full weighted releases? How much exposure to PMTS have you had? There are things available to you to control turn size but I hate to comment without knowing your ability levels and experience a bit more.

[Icanski]

This idea of getting onto the new edges before they start turning makes me ask, am I still letting the CM move down hill, too. I assume that you're on those new edges only an instant before they start turning. Or is the exercise one where you actually try to traverse on the "wrong edges" which would mean countering uphill at the high C part. Clarification please, before I fall numerous times...
icanski

[tommy]

I buy this 100% with any kind of speed on most terrain but I am not sure I see how it could work on steep terrain at slow speeds. Are we talking about carving and turning in general here? I assume we are talking a learning situation on moderate terrain for this and not looking for exceptions.

In my own experiments with the "high-C", I've noticed that when linking turns, speed definitely makes the move easier. On steeper terrain, when exaggerating the move, it feels like the upper body for a split second is falling down the falline, and there's no pressure on the skis for at that moment. Overall, it feels like you are thrown into the new turn by the energy from the previous.

However, the exercise form HH described in other post is much more difficult for me:

To learn to carve with a ?High C? engagement, the edges have to be changed before the skis change direction. If you pick out a spot on the side of the slope at the end of the turn, use that point to aim your ski tips at, when you have your spot, don?t change the direction of the skis during the edge change, keep the tips pointing at your spot. This means release the old edges, go through flat, get on the new edges, do not change direction.

I really have to struggle with counter balance to achive this, and often I'll end up with my balance on the new inside ski's LTE doing this exercise, resulting in involuntary one-ski-skiing....

It appears that to succeed with this exercise, you have to be sooo gentle, gradually "finding" the new edges while at the same time fighting to get into the new counter balance position.

[Harald]

I don?t want to go into this in depth, but in skiing there is a ?Tipping Point? beyond the regular angles that even good skiers achieve, it?s the ?Racer?s Edge?, clich? but appropriate here.

The Racer?s Edge is a new degree of tipping that few skiers achieve. To carve two clean, razor edge, thin carving tracks, you have to achieve the Racer?s Edge, especially on steeps and icy slopes.

The Racer?s Edge is that level of commitment where you say to yourself, ?Will it hold if I go this much farther??, and then you do it anyway. The boots suddenly tip over from giving you a holding edge, to the accelerating edge. This requires higher tiping and dropping into the turn.

I know this level of skiing is very high, but I put the carrot out there because I have seen such great progress from PMTS educated skiers that I think some are ready. When you achieve it, you won?t be asking anymore about how to make short turns on steep, icy slopes without skidding again, you'll know.

Yes it is possible, but it is a higher level of skiing, it is the highest level of hip on the snow free skiing and it is thrilling.

[Pierre]

The Racer?s Edge is a new degree of tipping that few skiers achieve. To carve two clean, razor edge, thin carving tracks, you have to achieve the Racer?s Edge, especially on steeps and icy slopes.

The Racer?s Edge is that level of commitment where you say to yourself, ?Will it hold if I go this much farther??, and then you do it anyway. The boots suddenly tip over from giving you a holding edge, to the accelerating edge. This requires higher tiping and dropping into the turn.

Yes it is possible, but it is a higher level of skiing, it is the highest level of hip on the snow free skiing and it is thrilling.

I know the movements that you speak of. I usually have problems with it like I forget that there is tons of sht in my huge coat pockets right about hip level. Once the commitment is made to drop into the turn for that acceleration out of the fall line its to late to discover that I have too much stuff in my pockets and my torso bounces off the crap in my pockets that is jammed against my inside thigh. The scenario is always the same, I bounce momentarily into the back seat, there goes the stance foot edge and I am skiing exclusively on the free inside edge in an outrigger turn.

I back off and go in and empty the pockets. Out comes the video camera, the extra battery, the tapes, lesson cards, a wad of heel lifts I carry for quick fixes on students, felt tip markers, lunch, ibuproffin, cell phone, comb, extra socks I forgot to remove, a few napkins and a plastic spoon or two. After that I still have enough center of mass and lack of ankle flex that I better be accurate when I drop in.

[Icanski]

I was trying to get the skid out of my turns on steeps (I'm using the term steeps relatively, since this is Ontario, and our steeps last about 300m, and then you're on flats really flats...
anyway, I remember the exercise where you lean on the wall and step the feet back and forth...so I went to a fence at the top of the run and leaned sideways against it and lowered myself to the approximate level of that great picture of HH by his posts. I dug in my stance BTE, and then moved the LTE on the free foot around. Close to the stance leg, with a matching edge angle, then in to where I "feel" that it often resides, (maybe that's where that skid is coming from) and back out to get a feel for the position. I think what happens on the steep or even moderately steep, for me, is the lack of trust of dropping in and getting on the edges to that degree. It's a matter of trust and committing to those edges. I have those moments where I start the turn and drop the hip in and al of a sudden I'm catching mysself on the free foot, so I think "I'm not going fast enough, or tipping enough, or..." and then start tinkering to find what it is. but leaning on that fence gives me a sense of how my body looks and feels in that position...lifting the skis one at a time and seeing that even leaning against the fence, the edges hold, one at a time. Now I've just got to get there while I'm moving...
and not hit the fence
icanski

[milesb]

Lifting the free foot during the high C keeps me from losing my balance onto it, especially in short turns. Guess I need more practice.