Pulling Inside Foot Back

[Ourayite]

I forced myself to spend some time doing drills last weekend, and found myself playing around with pulling my free foot back during my turns.

Does anybody have any comments on what the results are of this and what exactly I should be feeling. I actually had some pretty good luck doing this, and felt a difference in my skiing bit it was ambiguous.

Thanks,

Don

[Sidney]

Maintaining your fore/aft balance.

I never really concentrated much on pulling the free foot back until I started on the bumps and now i always pull my free foot back to some degree on all terrain. I would say it's critical in the bumps, I used to always find myself falling forward over the bumps, pulling the free foot back kept my body where I wanted it to be.

[jbotti]

The best line I heard someone say about pulling back the free foot is that the concept is to always keep the free foot in the position where you could balance on it without the aid of the other (stance foot). Besides being a guide to your fore aft balance, if the free foot is always in a position where you can balance on it, then you initiate a new turn without needing to get into a new position. In the steeps, where turn speeds are high, this is essential because you don't have time to get into position, you need to already be in position.

One caution, and I believe that I am correct on this, pulling the foot back too much and too early in the turn can cause some rotation and therefore reduce one's counter and egde angle. That's why I think the guide of keeping the foot in the exact weight bearing position is a good one.

There was a great thread on this not too many months back, but I'm not sure if it got saved when the forum switched to a moderated format.

[Sidney]

I think I mean, falling back, not forwards.

Maintaining your fore/aft balance.
I would say it's critical in the bumps, I used to always find myself falling forward over the bumps, pulling the free foot back kept my body where I wanted it to be.

[Ourayite]

Thanks for the responses. I am going to work on this some more on my next trip out.

[SkierSynergy]

First, a reminder: the three primary movements are inversion/eversion (tipping movements of the foot/ankle), Dorsiflexion/Plantarflexion (often combined with the more general movement of pulling the leg(s) back), and flexion/extension of the legs. With that remminder to frame my comments, I have to say that this issue is dear to my heart because it is something that I have struggled with. I have a firm sense of how important this is when things are going right and an even better sense of how important it is when they are not going right.

What are the functions of dorsiflexion/pulling the free foot back?

First, Dorsiflexion/plantarflexion is the most effective and efficient movement for controlling fore and aft balance. This is a very efficient point to initiate this because it provides a point of leverage with the ground very low in the kinetic system and therefore you can get very large direct effects with very small movement and effort. Trying to move at the knees, waist, or arms in order to redistribute one?s CM fore or aft is much much less effective and efficient -- and doesn?t always work like you want (more on this later). Now of course, most of us struggle more with getting forward enough than being too far forward and so dorsiflexion/pulling the feet back is most often emphasized.

However, dorsiflexion/pulling the feet back also have facilitating effects on the other primary movements.

An inside foot that is leading blocks the ability of the foot to tip towards the little toe edge. This is an issue of how anatomy interacts with the boot. As a test of this, just stand on the slope and push your left foot ahead one boot length. Now try to tip that foot to its little toe edge using the ankle. You will feel a definite limiting of this movement. Pull the foot back and LTE tipping becomes much easier.

Even when flexing the legs, it is usually most effective to start this movement with dorsiflexion in the ankle. As an example, while in your ski boots (but out of your skis) stand in a balanced position fore and aft. Now flex your legs starting with your knees first and do nothing with your ankles. Very quickly, you will find yourself sitting back with the toes of your boots off the floor. At this point, it becomes increasingly difficult to save your balance with dorsiflexion alone. Larger more inefficient movements of the torso and arms have to be recruited ? and often this isn?t even enough. A second time, start the action with dorsiflexion and then flexion of the knee. This will produce a totally different result with smaller more effective movements that keep one out of the back seat and in a better skiing position.


While it is important to remember that pulling the foot back is a movement, not a "place," inside leg lead is a very negative place that is difficult to get out of. Allowing yourself to have a substantial amount of inside tip lead will effectively block tipping movements and the ability to develop efficient fore/aft balance. It is usually also a cruch hiding a lack of lateral balance and effective pressure transfer.

[rl1zczi]

While it is important to remember that pulling the foot back is a movement, not a "place," inside leg lead is a very negative place that is difficult to get out of. Allowing yourself to have a substantial amount of inside tip lead will effectively block tipping movements and the ability to develop efficient fore/aft balance. It is usually also a cruch hiding a lack of lateral balance and effective pressure transfer.

I probably don't understand PMTS terminology but I couldn't imagine making a high speed GS turn at apex without inside leg lead to allow my hip's to assume the position required for extreme angulation. Inside leg lead, is, and always has been for me a "place", until that momentary transition before it becomes my outside leg and has been naturally "pulled back" by the biomechanics(at least mine) of the leg's flexion/extension cycle. What you call tipping, if I understand you, begins for me when the old outside leg begins its flexion cycle freeing my ankle and becomes more severe as my CM is forced down the hill. Without any instructor credentials, I wouldn't dare teach anybody this but it works well(there's always better) for me.

[SkierSynergy]

While it is important to remember that pulling the foot back is a movement, not a "place," inside leg lead is a very negative place that is difficult to get out of. Allowing yourself to have a substantial amount of inside tip lead will effectively block tipping movements and the ability to develop efficient fore/aft balance. It is usually also a cruch hiding a lack of lateral balance and effective pressure transfer.

I probably don't understand PMTS terminology but I couldn't imagine making a high speed GS turn at apex without inside leg lead to allow my hip's to assume the position required for extreme angulation. Inside leg lead, is, and always has been for me a "place", until that momentary transition before it becomes my outside leg and has been naturally "pulled back" by the biomechanics(at least mine) of the leg's flexion/extension cycle. What you call tipping, if I understand you, begins for me when the old outside leg begins its flexion cycle freeing my ankle and becomes more severe as my CM is forced down the hill. Without any instructor credentials, I wouldn't dare teach anybody this but it works well(there's always better) for me.

Two possible issues here.

First, the issue of counter action. One can move the inside hip forward by moving the inside foot forward, but you can do each independently: you can move the foot and keep the hips square and you can keep the feet even and move the hip. Using a foot shuffle to counter act has the negative effects that are implied in my last post. When the free foot is pushed forward it blocks inversion of the free foot. It also makes it more likely that the free foot knee will roll inward flattening the ski and that more weight will be placed on the flattened inside ski. It also disrupts abiolity to make smaller and more efficient fore/aft balancing movements and makes proper releasing harder. So . . . pressure is not transferred to the stance ski as effectively, tipping is blocked and stability replaces the development of efficient balance. This situation also makes it much easier to stick in a "park and ride," rather than managing movements more actively.

Second, I read a lot of people arguing that substantial tip lead is an anatomical necessity in high angled turns given the limited range of ankle movement in ski boots. The idea is that if one flexes one leg more than the other and the ankle can?t flex enough to adjust then the foot must move forward substantially. As the knee bends from 180 degrees to 90 degrees, this is true if the outward angle of the inside leg femur is Zero (parallel with the stance leg femur), and the tipping angle of the skis is kept the same. However if one rotates the inner femur outward more and allows the inner ski to have a greater tipping angle than the stance leg, the feet can be kept more even than a lot of people suggest. In fact counter balancing and counter acting naturally enhance this. Beyond 90 degrees, the increased angle of the knee makes it even easier to keep the feet even with less outward rotation of the femurs. Again, the goal is not to keep the feet even for it's sake alone. It's because the potition is the result of (and facilitates) more effective and efficient movements.

[rl1zczi]

I have no problem with what your saying when it applies to short radius or quick turns. I would have to see a high speed GS turn demonstrated with zero inside leg lead before I would consider trying it. Driving my hips into the turn while keeping my tips even would not allow the high angulation and skeletal stacking necessary to withstand the resultant forces.

[Harald]

One needs not look very much farther than Ski Racing magazine. Every GS skier winning (including the manufacturers posters of their top skiers) show the outside leg knee touching the inside ski boot. The inside ski lead is not the issue, lining and keeping the inside ski boot under the hips and the shin of that leg at a forward angle is the issue. If that?s the same as minimizing tip lead of the inside ski, then that?s fine.

[Belskisfast]

You nailed it H.
Great imagery.

[Harald]

rl1zczi,

Driving my hips into the turn while keeping my tips even would not allow the high angulation and skeletal stacking necessary to withstand the resultant forces.

As far as high ski edge angles, or body lean and inclination, I don?t know how you ski, but my photo with my posts is an average angle for my regular free skiing. If I don?t use the inside leg pull back as described by PMTS, I can?t achieve these angles without losing balance.

When I watch racers, especially masters, this is the missing part of their skiing. Perception is not reality. They think they are acheiving angles, the clock rarely lies, that's why I still attend Nor Am races, coach Diana at her races and work with many of our National Team skiers. If you are not hands on, and current, you lose the edge.

This season I had a chance to talk with Darren about his GS. He is the PMTS racer poster boy. He does it better than the rest.

[rl1zczi]

One needs not look very much farther than Ski Racing magazine. Every GS skier winning (including the manufacturers posters of their top skiers) show the outside leg knee touching the inside ski boot. The inside ski lead is not the issue, lining and keeping the inside ski boot under the hips and the shin of that leg at a forward angle is the issue. If that?s the same as minimizing tip lead of the inside ski, then that?s fine.

In this thread the inside (ski,leg,tip) lead has been the issue. Of course you won't find any winning GS skiers with no inside lead because it's not worthwhile or wise to spend training or drill time on. Minimizing tip lead is desireable and natural after proper hip alignment is achieved. The original flavor of the thread had to do with "pulling the free foot back" which is akin to having the free(inside) foot(ski,leg,tip) leading. To simply say inside lead is not the issue or is a negative that should be eliminated doesn't, in my view, address the needs of the majority of skiers on the slopes today and Ourayite in our thread here.

[rl1zczi]

rl1zczi,

Driving my hips into the turn while keeping my tips even would not allow the high angulation and skeletal stacking necessary to withstand the resultant forces.

As far as high ski edge angles, or body lean and inclination, I don?t know how you ski, but my photo with my posts is an average angle for my regular free skiing. If I don?t use the inside leg pull back as described by PMTS, I can?t achieve these angles without losing balance.

When I watch racers, especially masters, this is the missing part of their skiing. Perception is not reality. They think they are acheiving angles, the clock rarely lies, that's why I still attend Nor Am races, coach Diana at her races and work with many of our National Team skiers. If you are not hands on, and current, you lose the edge.

This season I had a chance to talk with Darren about his GS. He is the PMTS racer poster boy. He does it better than the rest.

Again, I have no problem with inside leg pullback. My problem was with trying to achieve no tip lead, even feet in any given fall line plane, etc. as a goal. Obviously, by reading you posts you are a "master of your domain" and I've recently ordered you books to get more familar with your terminology. I've only been coached and don't have any background with ski school teaching methodologies. I think I understand where Skiersynergy is coming from now after re-reading his posts. Enjoy the holidays all.

[Harald]

I?m afraid I have to clarify this position and respond to your denial.

First, it is pull the inside foot or boot or ski back, not the inside leg.

Second, inside ski tip lead is not the issue here.

Ideally yes, one would like to keep the tip back and even (lined up) with the outside tip, (as a visual or movement idea) just as you would like to keep either the boot, ski or foot back, as they are all connected.

When we ski properly, our hips are countered to the direction of travel, countering brings lead to the inside hip, of course then that side of the body will have some lead.

The issue is where the inside boot resides relative to the hip and outside boot.

Have a look at the photo to the left, the inside boot is back and there is little tip lead noticeable at this angle.

If it is not pulled back, and if there isn?t some tension to hold it back, it will sneak forward and the skier will end up with hips low and back. This is just plain fact, I?m sure you will find after you use, train, and research this possibility you will find a great advantage to your skiing.

Enjoy the books and video, Merry Christmas to all.