race relevance

[john heath]

harald, you make the point that the techniques you coach are a description of those used intuitively or deliberately on the world cup circuit, but so far your books have not specifically addressed race skiing, nor have you brought out a book specifically geared to race skiing. I'm guessing this is for one of two reasons, if not both:

1) your books are for people who have not been exposed to high level skiing yet.
2) pmts turns ARE race turns.

on the other hand, you felt some of the national team skiers in hintertux were getting it wrong, so i'm surprised there's been no race book or section.
is it simply the case that in GS you make pmts turns through gates, or is there more to it than that?
my confusion arises because i see schuss-like stances at certain stages of races, and also because the austrians, when they are not talking abuot a wide stance to allow for knee angulation, bang on about getting low to pressure the skis. this seems contrary to pmts approaches to shaped skis, where the outside leg does the pressuring around the fall-line point.

john mason, before you say it, i can't make a harb race camp, but i will be doing regular race training in austria and would like to know before the coaches get hold of me what is GS and what is BS.

john.

[John Mason]

I wish HH was around because that's looks like a fun post you got JH.

But, it'll be Oct before HH will be able to get back on the forum from what Chris Brown told me. Chris runs the shop in Dumont. I e-mailed him to check on HH's absence from the forum since your post looked like a great topic.

[Welcome Back]

Here is a good post worth a good answer

(John Mason)

Nice fish shots btw - was diana's fish bigger?

[Guest]

i think the pmts approach is very similar to the austrian ski team approach

and yes diana's fish are always bigger

[Biowolf]

What is the Austrian Ski Team approach in detail ?

[Harald]

I would like to know what people think the Austrian approach is? Is it a different technique, a national system or do they have gobs of talent that they simply weed out. Remember the population of Austria is 7 million, give or take a South Tirolean, inside joke. The US population is around 270 million.

I know some of what the Austrians do compared to the US programs, but why are they so successful, compared to the French, Swiss, Italian and other ski Teams?

[Biowolf]

Being from austria I have some insight into the situation. The passion for ski racing there is uncomparable. 100 000 people in Kitzbuehel says it all. And it runs through all levels. At my last visit to kitzbuehel I stayed in a Pension. The middle aged housewife in charge knew the starting list for the race by heart at ther morning before the race. No wonder the kids are exited. Plus the Austrian schooling system stops at grade 8 for the majority of kids. after that work starts. Unless you are a successfull racer. That is a great motivation. Plus you have Atomic, Fischer, Blizzard (Nordica, Head). They invest lots of money. The ski team budget is huge. And the people at the top are bright.
Now I would like to know what they do specifically (training wise).
I know one thing. They use the electronic insoles to messure weight distribution in a turn and they use a helm camera to study eye movement while skiing. Eye movement has a major impact on body motion. Just watch Federer.

[milesb]

Isn't there that "Master Race" thing going on?

[arothafel]

And the Herminator wins another.....! With a gimpy leg and old age of 32...eh? Just to bolster the Austrian "Master Race" concept. Or is that, as in Master's Racing?

I know the more I use my Carvers the better my racing becomes. There seem to be a lot of similarities.

[Harald]

No Master Race either way, when I first read your post I thought you were talking about a Master?s race. They don?t begin racing until December.

Ski teams have their highs and lows just like Baseball or Football teams. Although the Austrian men?s team dynasty is unprecedented, not only for the number of years, but also for the way they dominate. Often in world cup races there are six or seven Austrians in the top ten and the first three positions are Austrians.

I can remember when I was racing the dominant Team was French with Killy, Augert and Bozon. They had the best team into the seventies, but once their time was done, about the mid seventies until now, the Austrians have been very strong. The Swiss were very good with some Italians and Norwegians jumping in from time to time.

The Austrians have the most organized feeder programs. They have a great sports science program, far ahead of the US Team. Most of their ex-racers work for the ski team in one way or another as coaches, ski tuners, or Ski Federation officials. This brings an incredible wealth of experience to the Teams. The Austrian Ski Team and its feeder programs are run like a major corporation. They have their own planes with their own chiefs and food shipped when they travel.

Every small town in Austria has a ski lift and every town has a local ski hero who skis with the kids. As soon as a kid shows promise he is sent to a sports academy, sponsored by the national federation. The pride in their skiers goes without saying, beyond our sports heroes.

Each world cup race is like a major league event, spectators and TV etc. Hermann Maier may well turn out to be one of the great stories in skiing history, although he still has only about half the victories of Ingmar Stenmark.

[john heath]

i feel harald's explanation of talent pool size and efficiency of the pyramid system is most convincing. in my experience the coaching is poor.
i've seen the most hopeless video analysis being performed by the coach of a junior club, just smuggly pointing out errors.

go to an austria ski school and they'll teach you knee angulation, wide stance.
i was on the stubai glaciers the other day, loads of race teams of all ages were there. there are kids who haven't been walking long skiiing gates regularly.
whether they are well served by placing balloons between their knees when skiing is another question.
alignment seems quite widespread in the states, whether it can compete with pmts is another matter, whereas in austria, none knows what you're talking about when you mention it.

i've seen a number of austrian explanantions in which a wider stance is recommended for GS 'so you can get the knee in more'.
it might be that the best athletes are not the ones who obey the coaches but have good times and get selected.
presumably what the coaches have to offer is more along the lines of tactical advice rather than movement analysis.

biowolf, do you ski in austria or are you in the us?

[jclayton]

John ,I have to agree , the grass roots teaching and coaching I have seen in Austria , specifically St Anton , is pretty bad . Good coaching does not seem to filter down from the elite teams .Surprising as the centre for the ski team is in ST Christoph . I'll be skiing in St Anton at Xmas after a years hiatus , maybe it has improved .

[Biowolf]

@John;
I ski in Canada.
One thing to remember that no top skier has come out of a major Austrian ski centre like St. Anton or Kitzbuehel. They all come from smaller and poorer environments. Coaching at the club level is probably poor but in the schools is most likely high, conductred by academically trained coaches. What they do on the top level is hard to figure out. But Maier improved his Gs in a short period dramatically and you cant do that without changing your technique. And for that you have to know what you are doing. I would give a lot to get a piece of that knowledge. Also, St Chistoph is only the centre for the ski school system, which is one of the most structured in world and has little to do with the ski team.

[jclayton]

Wow , thats quite a flash modern building they have there if it's just for the skischool . I think Harald has some contact with Austrian coaches , I seem to remember he had something to do with Mario Matts alignment or something . I don't believe they would have a much different basic approach to HH but they would work a lot more on conditioning and gate technique etc . What I would think would be very instructive is videos of these guys training and freeeskiing where I imagine you wouldn't be seeing so many recoveries , just solid technique . Bodes video Faster was a bit of a disapointment as any training runs shown are all too brief .

[Biowolf]

Bodes video Faster was a bit of a disapointment as any training runs shown are all too brief .

JC, check out the CSCF video. Lots of drills and freeskiing of WC racers.