Harb Carvers

[Max_501]

This question is for those of you with Carvers. I've only spent an hour total on mine but I can't get them to turn very well. Sure, they'll do huge radius turns, but I can't get smaller turns going and nothing even coming close to the the tiny turns that Jay and HH do in the videos.

I've got the Pros. Anyone have any suggestions?

[John Mason]

I had no rollerblade background and I had similar problems. But, I was also backseat. They don't work if your not centered. Even slow railroad style turns, my right leg would go the wrong way. Centering myself over them fixed it for me.

They turn by being tipped and being pressured (sound familiar?). Becuase they are so short their turn radius can be quite tight. Actually turning them via rotary is ineffective because the wheels like to move forward or backward but not sideways (also sound familiar?).

The ways you can create tipping depend on speed. But you have counterbalance which works at zero speed, counter also works at 0 speed, and inclination - which only works with speed.

A carver camp would be best. I think Jay has some drills to try. But just some counterbalance drills to get them tipped while keeping pressure even on your foot, you should feel them turn you. Going more one footed will make them more responsive.

At the carver camp we were like frogs in boiling water. HH and Diana kepted resetting the course so what most of us couldn't touch for turn radius at the beginning, by the end of the day they had very gradually tightened the course we found our ability to edgechange and pressure and tip were improving and we were able to get them to turn us quite well.

[bejes]

I would say just spend time on them. It took me quite a few hours to get my turns shorter. Being centred will come by getting your free foot in the right place, even when you think it's back, it's not back enough.
Take some video of yourself, see if you are tipping as much as you think you are.

[RadRab]

Bs"D
In my small experience with them, a little speed really helps turn them. But, you have to have a lot of room to slow down with either a couple of big traverses after the shorties, or a flat or uphill run out - with no cars. Natural beveling due to wear will also inceasingly make turning easier.

But, I have the following question:
How do the Carvers really simulate on snow skiing, and foster proper modern carving technique (besides from the fact that they force you to tip them on "edge")? A ski turns because of the deformed sidecut of the ski when its camber is reversed as it is pressed onto the snow. I assume that the Carver's wheels don't have such dynamics, so I'm afraid that perhaps there is some steering going on? Yeah, the wheels don't want to go sideways, but they also don't have camber to reverse or sidecut. Am I missing something in their design and wheel dynamics?

[SLAVA]

Max
Go to Jay?s website he has not just ?some instructions? he has complete system from start to finish ?how to?
Your best choice would manage your time and come to Portland and carve with us me and Jay at Mt Tabor. We are planning to do that just like last summer at least 1 day a week.
Here are some quick tips for you:
Get an external cues how far to tip to LTE
Stay in front of the mirror on carvers tip either foot to LTE as much as you can. See in the mirror how far you tip. If it doesn?t look enough tip more till it looks almost extreme. You have to see pretty nice and big ?O? frame.
Now look away from the mirror. Try to remember the filing.
Now without looking to mirror base on our ?recorded? filling tip either foot to LTE.
Check the mirror. Does it tip the same?
If not tip more.
Repete these drills until you can tip either foot to LTE far enough (remember ?O ? frame) base on your ?recorded? filling
Now you ready to go outside.
Remember on carvers just like on skis every turn is started with tipping downhill foot to LTE. On carvers more then on skis it?s very important that tipping auction never stops.
Keep your weight even on both feet -the best to have your LTE tipping foot be slightly more weighted in the beginning of the turn (almost weighted release) as soon as you almost facing fall line distribute weight evenly on both feet. As turn progressed in fall line and right after fall line progressively shift weight to down hill foot (you new ?free foot?)
You have to start learning turn in faces. I recommend you start to develop bottom of the turn first. Then top of the turn. The one single turn. Then link turns.
Choose a very gentle hill that looks almost flat. You will fill more comfortable.
Again how to develop button and top of the turn on carvers well described on Jay?s website. If you learn to use carvers right you can make a complete turn back uphill going down hill in half of your driveway.
I removed breaks from my carvers a year ago. I can make a complete stop on 25-28 degree hill by just making a sharp turn uphill while I?m carving down.
Counter balancing of your upper body is very important on carvers.
Feel free to ask me more questions.

RadRab,
Carvers turn just like a motorcycle on free way. There is no rotary involved. I wouldn?t spend too much time to figure this out just laying?em down! Movement starts with LTE always remember that.

[John Mason]

there are some articles about how rollerblades turn - the physics of it - on the web

there is no steering to it

there is a "sidecut" effect to it just like skis.

[RadRab]

Bs"D
Thanks Slava and John.
I'm still thinking that there must be some steering, because even with a motorcycle, you can't just lean it. I think it is a combination of both a little turn of the handlebar and a lot of lean. I experience this on my bicycle.
However, maybe its not like a motorcycle. I will search a little on the web as you suggest John. After that, understand or not, I will take Slava's advise and forget it.

But, I want a chairlift (damm, even a rope tow) on my local road!

[Max_501]

Rad, I can get them to turn without any steering at all. I just want to move from GS turns to SL turns and so far I haven't managed that. Could be I'm not going fast enough.

[John Mason]

Actually - having been a long time motorcycle and biker, the LTE of turning these devices is counterintuitive. Just like skiing you need some movement to get the bike to start falling the direction you want to turn. In skiing it's the tip inside foot to LTE. In the wheeled varity you actually pressure the bars slightly the OPPISITE way you need the bike/motorcycle to turn. That creates the tipping of the whole system, then you catch yourself by repositioning the wheel to match the turn being created by the tipping.

Most people don't even realize they do this and on the larger wheeled motorcycle tired device it's easier to notice, but you do the same thing on a bike.

If you simply turn your wheel into the turn without letting the fall develop you get the same thing as skiing - you will lose any balance.

Forget the rotary - concentrate on balance and free foot tipping (or weighted inside foot tipping as slava said).

It would seem that devices - skis - carvers - bikes - motorcycles - all to where they go by tweaking balance rather than pivoting. That's not to say a person could force these things to turn via direct pivoting, but depending on the device the results are different levels of ugliness to disaster.

The key is to do movements that let all the above devices turn us rather than the other way around. A lot of posters over these 2 years have contended of course PTMS has rotary because they see the skis under a PMTS'ers body changing relative angles to where the body is facing. But there is a complete difference in whether the skier is applying rotary torque to the skis versas doing movements that create and manage edging and balance that make the skis turn under you. As you dynamically balance over these turning skis, you are skeletally strong. The person that turns their skis and also tries to balance is creating a weak body position and it just looks less elegant on the hill (and depending on how the skier is doing it can be destructive to the knees).

[SLAVA]

Rad, I can get them to run without any steering at all. I just want to move from GS turns to SL turns and so far I haven't managed that. Could be I'm not going fast enough.

Max speed is not an issue, tipping is. if you will tip more to LTE you will be able to make SL turns.
Now you need to develop an external cue so you will know for sure when you tip enough or not. it's hard to see if you have good "O" frame or not on your own. that's why I think the mirror drills should help.

here is an example of very short turns on carvers: I do on very slow speed as soon as I started moving I tip my foot of the direction of want to go to LTE so hard that I turn almost 360 degree around my pole with pole being in same place

[Max_501]

Slava, thanks for the explanation. I'll get out today and give it a try.

[Max_501]

Any suggestions on where to buy rubber protectors for the pole tips?

[SLAVA]

i buy from Jay . he get's them somewhere i think $1 a pair

[Max_501]

Those tip protectors should probably come with the carvers.

Slava, what carvers are you using?

[John Mason]

At the carver camp, HH just had some automotive hose and cut off some of that. Just push on the end - instant tip protector. Whatever you put on the tip wears out, the hose gives you a cheap supply of new tips whenever you need them.