Comments on the Aspen Method

[hozel]

I am curious about the thoughts of others on this forum who have read John Clendenin's series of articles on his method for skiing bumps. Having had the opportunity to take one of the ski doc's camps, I found the material to be 'spot on' with what was taught. It would be interesting to get others' opinions and further the discussion here.

[patprof65]

I was also curious about the Clendenin material. I know that John is PMTS certified-but there does seem to be some differences between the two methods. Would love to hear some of the "regulars" comment on the similarities-differences.

[John Mason]

I had a private lesson with John this season. I've had many camps etc with HH and crew. Here is my personal take on their teaching styles and goals.

John C. will tune you up on the ski deck and get you doing phantom move turns instead of rotary. You learn to establish balance on your outside foot uphill lte then tip the inside foot to create the turn.

In that regard it's the same as PMTS. In PMTS this is the Super Phantom turn. He will also say that a skid that is on purpose is a drift and there is nothing wrong with a drift. And, all a drift is - is a normal pmts style turn where there is not enough edging to carve so the skis skid in a controlled fashion. In bump skiing he will work with you to use fore/aft balance to drift from bump to bump while balancing on the uphill ski LTE.

I didn't find anything in my lesson with him contradictory to PMTS. HH and Diana teach a more pure carved approach.

Where they do differ structually is PMTS is now refocusing to help people carve the top of the turn. I'm referring to that theme of the High C part of the turn you see talked about a lot here. John C. does not see the point of this. To get the High C HH is using counter and counter balance at the top of the turn. John C's approach is to not worry about counter and let it develop naturally at the bottom of the turn. Needless to say, you see this as a difference when HH or John C skis. HH carves the whole turn, John C does not. Both parties are comfortable with their own skiing.

Neither is a rotarian at all. John C had our little group doing these wild variations on pivot slip drills just playing with fore-aft balance while focusing on keeping most of our weight on the uphill ski LTE.

So, while I was taught nothing contradictory to PMTS by John C, he will show you a pic of bode on the computer monitor and say all that edging bode gets is from inclination and that the focus for carving the very top of the turn is not needed. But, also consider where they both ski. John C will almost never ski a groomer if he had his way. HH likes to race it up on a groomer or anything else for that matter. In John C's bump filled world and off piste, he's comfortable with his style. In HH's short radius turn leaving tracks like a racer, you need that early edge engagement.

So, HH has a book coming out in August to highlight this hi-performance style skiing. John C has a book coming out highlighting the drift aspect of all-mountain skiing.

Yet, both reject pivoting and focus on the idea of establishing balance on the outside ski and letting it's role be passive while focusing on an active inside foot for initiating and controlling turns.

HH likes to carve and use the ski that way, while John C has no problem with a soft carve using the ski like a butter knife. In that regard they are quite different than each other. But in how they teach you to turn the skis, they are very similar.

For a John C style approach you can pick up Eric and Rob Delauries book Ski the Whole Mountain. You'll see, like John C's teaching, they stop at the Super Phantom style of turn. HH continues past that in his books to the weighted release and in the new book I'm assuming at this point, to give more information to help people experience the High C carved turn including early use of counter. John C doesn't go there. So, it's largly different strokes for different folks. I personally picked up usefull information from both, and did not find it contradictory at all.

John C is the largest booker of private lessons with his staff at Aspen. He has quite an operation going. He has a current demo team member teaching for him that he had to work with to basically teach to ski. (the guy came in wedded to rotary but John C was able to successfully "brainwash" him of that.)

Whether what John C teaches is PMTS or not, I can't say officially. He is a black PMTS cert, he uses descriptions for the movements that differ from classic PMTS but they are the same moves. I just feel he stops a bit early and doesn't explore the full dynamic of edging and control that you can get from today's skis like HH does.

John C came from the bump ski and free ski background, while HH came from the WC background. So their different emphasises are not a surprise. In many ways it's almost a predictable difference given their backgrounds. But they are using mostly the same "tools" imo.

[milesb]

I've found that just trying to get the Hi C going makes for better bumping.
Even though there is seldom any carving going on. I don't know if I'd recommend it for a novice bumper.

[patprof65]

John-Very helpful post-as usual. Thanks

[*SCSA]

hozel,

Why not just keep it simple, follow PMTS?

[Guest]

Actually SCSA, I do follow PMTS. I have been a supporter of Harald's since becoming aware of him after the publication of the first book, and have found his teaching methods invaluable in my advancement as a skier. It just seems that the subtle differences in HH and JC's approach to bump skiing lead me to be inclined to take the latter approach. For me, speed control is the paramount issue and the soft or feathered edge drifting accomplishes that. It might be that John Mason is the only one on the forum who has taken courses from both men and has been able to point out differences first hand in his excellent post. I was basically just wondering what the rest of the group thought of the written material.

[SLAVA]

First of all John C used to be a black level PMTS but not anymore. For the reason of not attempting any PMTS event for last 4 years and not being on top of what is going on in PMTS today. I learned this directly from HH.
What John C teaches is not PMTS it?s he?s own system with some elements he adapted from PMTS.
Philosophy of Harald is: ?why to teach someone to be flatter in the bumps (in order to drift) when most (95%) people are flat already? It simply doesn?t work?
I consider PMTS the best system around because it?s movements-logical and teaches you to use only one technic in any condition. If you making high C turns and use earlier counter you will be able to ski any where ice, bumps, powder, crud, you name it. Earlier engagement of edges on top of the turn will control speed just fine.

Personally I don?t have any thing against John C.i watched him ski. He looks relaxed in bums and very good skier but his style of skiing doesn?t appeal to me. I ski with HH in bums this April the way he skies bums looks very appealing to me.
Every one has right to make his own chose. So I choosed PMTS.

[Max_501]

I think its fine to learn more than one way to ski challenging terrain like bumps. The PMTS method of skiing bumps is fun, efficient and athletic (and it looks cool!). But sometimes I'm too tired or beat up to rip the bumps that way. In that case a gentle drift down a bump run is a nice change of pace. I think Lito also has a drifting style for bumps.

So I try to ski 100% of the time with PMTS movements but once in a while when I'm tired or my wrists are hurting (from jamming them into bumps when I'm skiing aggressively) I'll switch to a drift (still using PMTS movements for the turns). Whatever works!

[*SCSA]

JC is old school and is truly a hero. In the 70's, it was him, Wang Wong, Eddie Ferguson, Suzie Chapstick. That crew literally put freestyle skiing on the map, they belong in the ski hall of fame.

Okay, everyone stick their hand up who knows what the Jet turn is.
Did you have the Jet stick? I did.
What was it used for?
The Jet turn.
"Who" was the Jet turn?
Wang Wong.
I had a poster of him above my head. The classic poster (boy, I'd pay for that) of him I think on K2's -- the red/white/blue bases- in the bumps, doing a Jet turn. As I understand it, Wang shows up to JC's camps every now and then.

Back then, I was too poor/angry/both to ski. I just dreamed about it.

Who had a pair of the red/white/blue sunglasses? I want a pair.
Remember ballet skiing? What was it called? The Royal Christie. Every now and then, I see someone doing one. There's guys at the Love Land that are way proud of their straight skis, from the 70's. This one guy really does think he's good...No, I'm not sayin a word to him.

The 70's baby. Bitchin. Sex, drugs, rock and roll.

[*SCSA]

That'd be Wayne Wong.

[*SCSA]

From the not news department...

In Hasbeen restaurants, they drill holes in the sinks and put vaseline on them, so the patrons won't do their evil powder on them. It's not uncommon in Hasbeen to walk into a john, see 3 people in the stalls. That town has a powder problem, big time. Again.

Hwy 82 between Bonedale and Hasbeen is the most dangerous stretch of highway in the state.

[RadRab]

Bs"D
Ah SCSA, you crack me up. Yeah, that'd be Wayne.
Anyway, yeah I remember my first pair of hot skis, the red, white, and blue K2 Comps; spread eagles and back scratchers. But, I think I misunderstood the airplane turn.
Beware, the following might be bore you:
Once (33 yrs ago at the end of a six week summer race camp), while skiing on the front face of the Cervina ski area below the Plateau Rosa - as far as one could, I realized too late that during our two day break the snow had melted a good way up the slopes. I carried a lot of speed over a bump at the end of a dip and rise, giving me a few of feet of air right into the field of dirt and rocks that was out of view till then. Quickly searching for a way out, and being the ever optomistic type, I spotted a little patch of snow about 10 feet in front of me, but 5 feet to the side. I thought: "Ah, I'll just make one of those airplane turns, land on the patch of snow, and make an emergency hocky stop on it. Needless to say, I was lucky to only break my arm in the horrendous tumble that took place as I saw myself pass that patch of snow on the side as I kept flying straight. Don't forget that then we used staps, not brakes, so those skis clanked with me all the way. One of my poles was severed right in half.
By the way, after the seventies you gave up rock and sex?

[Turnalot]

By the way, after the seventies you gave up rock and sex?

NEVER!!!!

[*SCSA]

Mason and some other PMTSians are holding up pretty well over there at gapic. Nice job. RadRab may have got himself famous, with the idiot line. Hah ha hah.

It's way cool to see others stepping up.

So now that it's clear we're never gonna be mainstream or anywhere near close, can we go back to being small? I wanna get small. Let's get better, at being small.

Go smaller??

"We're smaller than 97% of all..." wtf do you call us??


The skunks. We're the skunks. Our leader, is the Dumont Skunk.

Sung to the tune of Soak up the sun, Sheryl Crowe:
"My friend the communist.
"Holds meetings at the Skunkworks..."