Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating skier

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Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating skier

Postby h.harb » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:58 pm



Here is why the Carv tool, which could have been a good product will fail. It measures how bad you are as a skier, not how you should learn to know if you are doing things right.
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Re: Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating s

Postby h.harb » Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:16 pm

Not only is the Carv product not going to help anyone but it will lead you in the wrong direction with your skiing. Their videos with PSIA are terrible, they are promoting extension, pivoting and driving to the front of the boot with no movement advice. Another 10 years to be lost before people discover how wrong this is.
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Re: Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating s

Postby HighAngles » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:27 am

The pressure "seen" at the bottom of the feet is such a limited view of a sport like skiing that I really don't see how this could ever work as a device to provide bio-feedback on ski technique. The Snowcookie has more promise as it has 3 positional sensors (one on each ski and one on the torso), but they're making the same mistake as Carv getting in bed with PSIA coaches to develop the skiing models of supposedly "good" skiing.
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Re: Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating s

Postby tangem1 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:22 am

I agree the CARV training drills in the app are not worth following and the ski iq measurement should be ignored but I do think the video with the data overlay feature is valuable. I used it with my daughter last season and I would say the main benefit is it has allowed us to quantify what is happening in the boot and outside the boot and settle some debates. That being said I think additional sensors on the torso and hip would be great additions and would capture a more complete picture but I do think the system is better than the snowcookie in that it lets you see what is happening inside the boot. Here are a couple of examples of how we have used it that I think have been helpful that may or not be helpful to others.
Tipping - Is the inside leg tipping first, how far is she tipping and how much weight is on the inside foot. With the overlay we watch the video and can see the angles of each boot and the amount of pressure she is putting on the inside and outside ski. Much of this can be seen just by watching the video but seeing the actual data helped her see that she really wasn't starting the turn with the inside foot as much as she thought she was and while she wasn't pushing the outside ski she was starting the movement there. It also showed that she was carrying too much weight on the inside ski so we worked on being lighter with the inside foot. We also saw that she was starting the movement higher up the kinetic chain and not in her feet. When I had her exaggerate tipping the boot while standing still it clearly showed the pressure on the little toe edge inside the boot but when doing runs you could see she was moving the knee over but the movement wasn't coming from her trying to tip her foot over in the boot.
Foot pullback - We did some drills with foot pullback and then reviewed the video overlay to see what the pressure sensors showed. We then did runs and looked for the evidence from the pressure sensors that she was getting forward by pulling the feet back and not just leaning forward.
All that being said this could all be done more effectively and efficiently with a movement analysis by a qualified pmts instructor so the value is definitely limited if you have someone that can provide that on the hill and you have a student that is open to that feedback. Before we had the CARV we often had debates for example about if she was starting the movement from her feet but this pretty much put a stop to that as she could clearly see from the data whether it was true or not. So I think its been a good tool for some validation and also for helping her better understand when what she is feeling isn't matching up with what is really happening. It is a long way from being a ski coach imo given that all the feedback and videos are from PSIA but in these isolated views I think it can be helpful for someone self coaching.
If you havent seen the overlay capability the video below from Tom Gellie below shows the old version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvUAb45LXTY
I really wish they would have made this open source so that new models could be trained and developed. Would be awesome if one could be built off of Harald, Diana, Reilly and some world cup skiers movements.
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Re: Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating s

Postby h.harb » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:12 pm

I'm sorry, I worked with the tool, with the developers, and the tool doesn't lead you to the movements you maybe referring to that are used by Harald, PMTS, Diana or Reilly. They would have to change the parameters of release, angle development, and pressure loading. The tool isn't set up to correct the wrong movement unless you know how to read it in a way to evolve your own set of parameters and data collection. So don't get too over confident that you are going in the right direction with it as your guide.
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Re: Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating s

Postby tangem1 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:41 pm

I agree Harold the instructor led portion of the app is completely wrong and has nothing from PMTS so we have avoided following any of the guides advice from the app. We focus on the raw data that Is collected and can be viewed on the recorded video footage and that’s where I think there is some value. Looking at the data you can see exactly where the pressure is and the exact angle of each boot frame by frame from the video which allows you to see for example that the inside ski started the tipping first and that the movement started by trying to tip the foot in the boot and not dumping the hip. The ai portion of the app doesn’t do any of this. As you said the app isn’t going to lead you to the correct movements you still need to know what to look for so doing this type of analysis requires someone to know what the correct movements are from pmts and then look at the data and then you have a reference point which you can compare to future runs without having to have video of the run.
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Re: Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating s

Postby h.harb » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:37 am

That is all fine but will it tell you what movements you are making and how to improve the movements you have missing. can it pick what movement you need to improve? No. I'm very skeptical that it's just another gadget people will buy play with and dump. There are no short cuts to being an expert skier.
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Re: Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating s

Postby HeluvaSkier » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:52 am

h.harb wrote:There are no short cuts to being an expert skier.


THIS!
Discipline is the refining fire by which talent becomes ability.

www.youtube.com/c/heluvaskier
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Re: Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating s

Postby jbotti » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:20 am

Perhaps put another way, you have to work on your SMIM until its is no longer absent in any of your skiing, no matter how long it takes. As many can attest (with me at the top of the list), some of the more difficult ones can take years.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating s

Postby tangem1 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:57 am

h.harb wrote:That is all fine but will it tell you what movements you are making and how to improve the movements you have missing. can it pick what movement you need to improve? No. I'm very skeptical that it's just another gadget people will buy play with and dump. There are no short cuts to being an expert skier.

I agree with this 100%. I really wish they had designed it around PMTS movements so it would do this or at least have included the ability to build your own ski iq models which you could use in place of the psia derived one they have built.
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Re: Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating s

Postby h.harb » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:57 pm

Ski instructors have dismally low success rates with getting students to a higher level. Why? Because they teach an adaptive lesson and use adaptive outcomes that are at a low skiing standard and level. When I watch our ski groups skiing at camps it is obvious they ski better than most ski instructors. So why bother wasting time and money taking a lesson from PSIA when you ski better than the instructor they give you? Even if you get an instructor who is a reasonable skier, doesn't mean he knows how to teach you movements that will advance your ability.

I've been teaching recreational skiers for 25 years, since my racer coaching days. I know what it takes to change movements and what obstacles skiers go through to learn. I know what challenges skiers face. First of all, you have to realize, a skier can't change a movement pattern that has been adapted to for a poor boot set up, until the boot set up is corrected. That skier will make the same mistake over and over no matter who coaches them. But this is the standard at the US Ski Team as it is in PSIA.

In a PSIA lesson you will not get this changed. PSIA knows zero about boot fitting, alignment and boot set ups.
So no matter how good the "CARV" system gets, it's still a compromise until you have dealt with your boot set up properly and accurately.

An example, 3 out of 4 skiers that come to our shop need to have an "extended range", "T-Nut" installed into their cuff adjustment feature to achieve the correct position on their leg. We invented this "T-Nut application, and we have the hardware made to fit and modify most boot cuff adjustors. The boots that come with adjustments on the cuff do not address the range needed for proper positioning of the boot cuff to the lower leg.

Over 70% of skiers don't have their cuffs correctly positioned, this also goes for the world cup racer. Harb Ski Systems are the only ones in the ski industry that do this and know what it does for the skier. We know and have developed this system by hands on changes and evaluations. We also watch, analyze and coach PMTS movements with success to skiers who were not able to achieve them before the boot corrections were made.

o At our ski camps our coaches and technicians work together to determine the alignment that will work best and we modify it based on the turns a skier makes.

We have a long list of top skiers we have changed for the better since they have make the correct adjustments. For example: Reilly Mcglashan, Tom Gellie, Erik Schlopy, Sarah Schlepper, Resi Stiegler, to name just a few, and many others who are already highly accomplished but were not able to maximize their abilities. Even Mikaela Shiffrin benefited from our alignment analysis from my phone call over the ocean. Many accomplished skiers reach a dead end in their skiing and don't know where to turn. I've coached and met only two skiers (they were World Cup winners) in my career who didn't need alignment, so that leaves lots of skiers who can use help.

So regardless of your attempts at quick fixes, Carv systems or Camps by ex-ski stars, you are spinning your wheels until your address the mechanical limitations in your equipment first. The movements you receive, learn and instruction that gives you the correct movements, are just as important and are integral to the alignment. You won't achieve successful until you learn the same movements used by the really high end outstanding skiers and they all use PMTS.
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Re: Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating s

Postby tangem1 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:12 pm

Absolutely agree and that’s why we have been in to see Diana several times now for boot fitting/alignment for her since she is quite knock kneed. Diana was also kind enough to spend some time on snow with her to make sure the alignment was good. Having the proper boot alignment has made the biggest difference in her skiing out of the things we have done.
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Re: Carv, is a tool to become a PSIA skidding and rotating s

Postby VAskier » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:25 am

HeluvaSkier wrote:
h.harb wrote:There are no short cuts to being an expert skier.


THIS!


It might take years, but there is a shortcut to expert skiing. It's called PMTS. Anything else is just a long road to nowhere.
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