Not about turning forces

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Not about turning forces

Postby h.harb » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:40 pm

Someone brought up the topic to me that "rebound", came out of turning forces. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's not about turning forces, it's about ski-bend and timing the retraction. Ski bend and energy from the ski comes from tipping angles and speed; simple physics. I'm sure Max501 can find where this all comes from, if it's on the forum.
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Re: Not about turning forces

Postby Max_501 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:59 pm

Here you go: Rebound

BTW, when I reference "turn forces" in the Rebound thread I'm not talking about active rotary movements/forces to twist the legs to turn a flat ski or any other 'leg steering' (which is what HH is referring to above and something we don't do in PMTS). For those interested in the physics involved (and what I mean when I say "turn forces") here's an introductory lesson: The-Forbidden-F-Word
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Re: Not about turning forces

Postby h.harb » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:53 pm

It doesn't matter how much you get out of the ski. That isn't the concern, the concern should be are you achieving the right movements for the best results. The right movements are all spelled out and documented. This question is purely academic. We know the forces act on us and on the ski. The more edge angle and tighter we can make the radius the more we produce forces.


My best rebound comes in the arc later than where the greatest gravitation and centripetal forces are measured. Why, because I can shorten the radius, right after the maximal loaded point. As we know from the acceleration equation, shortening the radius increases centripetal acceleration. Therefore, I get more rebound feel as I shorten the radius.


If you realize that rebound isn't like a springboard, you'll stop looking for it to be that way. Releasing, properly at the right time, lets any forces that are acting on your body take over. It is how you use your technique and establish balance for the transition that will determine who well the release worked for the next turn.
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Re: Not about turning forces

Postby Max_501 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:07 pm

h.harb wrote:It doesn't matter how much you get out of the ski. That isn't the concern, the concern should be are you achieving the right movements for the best results. The right movements are all spelled out and documented. This question is purely academic. We know the forces act on us and on the ski. The more edge angle and tighter we can make the radius the more we produce forces.


Forum readers take note - this is another nugget of gold from HH.

We can analyze the physics of a perfect turn ad nauseam and it won't make any difference in our skiing. What will? Start with page 1 of book 1 and go from there. :D
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Re: Not about turning forces

Postby Vailsteve » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:13 pm

Great refresher for me on the fallacy of centrifugal force. Brings me back to my HS physics class. Max501’s talent for unearthing gems is simply amazing.

Took a clinic today. Clinic leader was a PSIA Level three. Actually quite a good skier. Ex racer. Definitely can lay down some railroad tracks. Big emphasis, push β€” his words β€”on the uphill ski to get it to engage at the high C part of the turn. Steer your ski underneath to cross under your COM. I tried pushing. Completely unbalanced me. I like tipping.

BUT, he did emphasize flexing β€” not extending. He said I need to flex more, which is true. I still ski too stiffly.

Three more days left working this week. Then, done at Vail. 112 days so far. Tired. Too many days I think. Getting old.

But a great, great season.
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Re: Not about turning forces

Postby h.harb » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:23 pm

Even if the PSIA guy gets it half right, it will never work out so you end up skiing properly.
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Re: Not about turning forces

Postby Vailsteve » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:30 pm

I know Time for some camps again...
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Re: Not about turning forces

Postby h.harb » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:50 pm

Don't waste your time on the minutia unless you make a living at gathering grant money for sports science projects that end up helping no one ski better. I presented and attended at 2 International Congresses of Skiing and Science and didn't learn a thing that made my skiing better.


Max501 We can analyze the physics of a perfect turn ad nauseam and it won't make any difference in our skiing. What will? Start with page 1 of book 1 and go from there.


Example, Ron Lemaster wrote a book about (his version of) the physics of skiing. He can't ski, can't buy a turn and his book has no information that would want you to get out and try what he wrote about, yet PSIA thinks it validates everything they do. It's a crock of shit.
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Re: Not about turning forces

Postby blackthorn » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:32 pm

OK.
I am able to get to ski about 20 days a year, and now about to retire I hope to at least double this. Sure, a "just do it using PMTS approach" is great - and indeed I am trying. But for me PMTS theory, and indeed skiing theory is something I think about often.
I use a PMTS lens and go from there - this was my best move ever. This allows me many more days enjoyment than just skiing days. A skiing tragic ??? - maybe.
But it is the grace of the movements and the flowing with the mountain that are evident in the PMTS approach that really appeals to me. It is a "use the forces" approach.
I regard non PMTS movements as recovery movements when I am not skilled enough, and occasionally when there is no alternative.

I think PMTS should be allowed to appeal at every level.
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Re: Not about turning forces

Postby h.harb » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:59 am

Great post by "Noclevername" Note to all Forum readers, this is what you get if you stay with PMTS. PSIA people can't understand this because they don't know what they don't know!

I'm not sure why this thread popped back to life :? But way back then in 2007 when I made my post I knew nothing. Now, 11 years later I know a bit more (i.e., next to nothing). But I have certainly moved away from any need to understand skiing "academically". It's like HH says, it's all just the movements. The fascinating thing about this system is that as you chip away at the movements, the results reveal themselves as surprising, unexpected outcomes. You then begin to have a lot more faith in the wisdom of the movements which in turn motivates you to get better at them.

I guess it demonstrates how well-chosen the essentials are.
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Re: Not about turning forces

Postby h.harb » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:02 am

I think PMTS should be allowed to appeal at every level.


It already does and always has!
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