Holding CA in transition

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Holding CA in transition

Postby precisionchiro » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:22 pm

Just came across this phrase/checkpoint in one of Harald's posts, as a newer PMTS concept.

I've always tried to follow the PMTS checkpoint of squaring up the upper body to neutral when skis are flat in transition. But, when looking at many slo-mo videos and pics, it looked to me like CA was held slightly into and even past the transition into the start of Hi C of the new turn.

I just tried to search the forum here for this subject... no luck.

Anyone have any info or reading material on this? My curiosity is piqued.

TIA.
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Re: Holding CA in transition

Postby Obrules15 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:43 pm

I think you'll find it in Diana's Angry Mother videos.
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Re: Holding CA in transition

Postby Max_501 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:19 pm

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Re: Holding CA in transition

Postby precisionchiro » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:04 am

Thank you, Max.

Just what I was looking for.
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Re: Holding CA in transition

Postby precisionchiro » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:08 am

I am so glad to get caught up on this. Un-CAing and squaring up at flat skis sounded nice in theory, but I just wasn't seeing it happen in shorter turns.

2 questions:

It seems to me that, given the forces and biomechanics of a turn, releasing the CA from the previous turn would coincide (a bit more or less) with the start of pressure engagement on the new outside ski? (at or just before the fall line, I think, not too early in Hi-C)? If that's somewhat correct, that seems like a logical cause/effect "point" in the turn for this particular aspect of UB/LB coordination.

And.... is this why the US is doing so poorly in slalom? The timing and coordination has to be SO QUICK AND ACCURATE compared to GS, I'm guessing slalom will highlight and magnify the slightest weaknesses and mis-timings of body movements... so it stands to reason that slight mistakes/weaknesses can be hidden easier in longer turns.
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Re: Holding CA in transition

Postby Max_501 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:32 pm

CA as soon as the new edges are engaged. If you wait until pressure is building you'll be too late with CA.

For the racing question check out Harald's blog. Lots of info there.

http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/
Last edited by Max_501 on Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holding CA in transition

Postby tigernbr » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:42 pm

Diana's Angry Mother videos are excellent.
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Re: Holding CA in transition

Postby geoffda » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:01 pm

precisionchiro wrote:I am so glad to get caught up on this. Un-CAing and squaring up at flat skis sounded nice in theory, but I just wasn't seeing it happen in shorter turns.

2 questions:

It seems to me that, given the forces and biomechanics of a turn, releasing the CA from the previous turn would coincide (a bit more or less) with the start of pressure engagement on the new outside ski? (at or just before the fall line, I think, not too early in Hi-C)? If that's somewhat correct, that seems like a logical cause/effect "point" in the turn for this particular aspect of UB/LB coordination.

And.... is this why the US is doing so poorly in slalom? The timing and coordination has to be SO QUICK AND ACCURATE compared to GS, I'm guessing slalom will highlight and magnify the slightest weaknesses and mis-timings of body movements... so it stands to reason that slight mistakes/weaknesses can be hidden easier in longer turns.

Pressure and engagement are different things. When the engagement happens immediately to create a turn component above the fall line, there is very little pressure because the centrifugal force being generated by the top of the turn is offset somewhat by the force of gravity pulling the skier down the hill. We never talk about early pressure because that isn't the goal. Early tipping angles to get early engagement which gets the ski turning right away is the right approach. While it is probably true that this approach will create earlier pressure than a turn which skips or shortens the top of the arc, pressure develops when it develops. If you make the right movements, you don't need to worry about generating it ("early" or otherwise).

In any case, CA is a continuous movement. When you finish the previous turn with full range of CA and then hold it onto new edges, you start the new turn with your hips turned towards the inside of the new turn as far as they can go. So when you change to new edges and then start moving your hips they have some distance to travel before they will actually be facing the outside of the turn, relative to the direction your skis are pointing. There are good diagrams in Essentials that show this relationship, but it is generally the case in short turns that your hips and your skis will be facing the same direction at the fall line. As the skis turn through the fall line, the hips will be turning in the opposite direction to face the outside of the turn.

CA is critical in slalom because it is what keeps the tail of the ski engaged at the end of the turn. With CA, you have a gripping ski to release from and the energy can be translated into the new turn. This makes you faster. Without CA, even if you don't completely lose grip, that energy bleeds away as the ski slowly straightens. At best, you get less performance, at worst, the tails slide out and you actually lose speed because you can't release. David Choudunsky was the best slalom skier on the men's side and he did not have a solid mastery of CA. Whether that is the only reason why he could never consistently break through into the upper ranks, I'm probably not qualified to say, but it was certainly a factor. There was a great picture of him and Mikaela Shiffrin side-by-side in the same turn at U.S. Nationals one year and the contrast was striking. Mikaela was counteracting and counterbalancing and was riding a bent ski. David was leaning and rotating and was losing his ski.
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Re: Holding CA in transition

Postby geezer skier » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:09 am

WOW-great post-thanks!
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Re: Holding CA in transition

Postby precisionchiro » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:22 am

I agree, geezer... this thread is extremely helpful.

Former PSIA ski instructor here, from my younger years (ugh), now have an 8 year old son going to start in a local racing program, so I'm joining the coaching staff, got my USSA Level 100 a couple of years ago (ugh, again).

Ugh. Traditional American ski instruction AND race coaching is really frustrating once you know and use Primary Movements. "Extension, extension, extension.... pressure early!... use the big toe... swing the pole forward toward the ski tips to bring your weight forward...." The amount of eye rolling I do in clinics and courses. Ugh. :roll:

Thanks to everyone again.
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