Stiff carver for eastern ice

Post your questions/comments about Gear here

Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby noobSkier » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:50 pm

Ever since I demoed the i.SL RD I've fancied the idea of having a stiff slalom carver for eastern ice. Currently skiing the SS KERS which I LOVE but they have almost 100 days on them. My idea is to keep the SS in service as my learning ski, but also have a "fun" ski more suited towards eastern ice (that can still brush). I considered the i.SL non-RD but the consensus seems to be that its not much different from the SS KERS. I'm looking closely at the Dynastar speedzone 16ti, which I heard is great. Are there any other stiff slalom carvers that are known to be PMTS-friendly?
User avatar
noobSkier
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby Max_501 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:13 pm

What do you mean by stiff? Tip and tail or torsional rigidity?
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 3877
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby jbotti » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:30 pm

The best slalom ski that both Max and I have ever skied is an Atomic true race room (was used by a WC athlete) slalom ski that had unreal edge hold but was not that stiff (the best flex pattern we have ever felt on a ski). Slalom skis that are too stiff are really not what anyone wants other than Bode Miller at the end of his career (where he kept skiing stiffer and stiffer Head slalom skis). You can look at the results and even with his unreal athletic ability he rarely finished a slalom course on those uber stiff skis. Very few top ten slalom skiers are on uber stiff skis and mortals should never be on them.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby noobSkier » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:17 pm

Max_501 wrote:What do you mean by stiff? Tip and tail or torsional rigidity?


Good question...what I'm REALLY looking for is insane edge hold on ice, short of an actual race ski. I just always thought such a ski should be stiff.

jbotti wrote:The best slalom ski that both Max and I have ever skied is an Atomic true race room (was used by a WC athlete) slalom ski that had unreal edge hold but was not that stiff (the best flex pattern we have ever felt on a ski). Slalom skis that are too stiff are really not what anyone wants other than Bode Miller at the end of his career (where he kept skiing stiffer and stiffer Head slalom skis). You can look at the results and even with his unreal athletic ability he rarely finished a slalom course on those uber stiff skis. Very few top ten slalom skiers are on uber stiff skis and mortals should never be on them.


Thanks for your insight jbotti. Are there any skis, short of a race ski, that strike you as a good for eastern ice? ...like damn icy, think Tremblant.
User avatar
noobSkier
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby jbotti » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:27 pm

The Stöckli Lasr SX has edge hold a few notches higher than other great carving skis. Bear in mind than when you are skiing on ice technique is as important as the ski and the tune (yes they need to be sharp with great sandwich construction edge hold). But the second one leans in even slightly on ice there is good chance the edge slips.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby Max_501 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:02 am

Technique has to be nearly perfect to carve on ice. I'd guess most of the race derived Head and Elan carving skis should be fine on ice if your technique is dialed.

h.harb wrote:This is a good start, I wrote this many years ago and there are a few observations and insights that can be added. I don't think it needs amending, as I just read it critically and it still stands up.

Harald wrote:
Carving on hard snow and while you are in a carved turn, encountering a patch of slick stuff, can be challenging even for the best skiers. Everything has to be perfect and you can?t relax the lateral pressure of the foot and ankle against the inside wall of the boot. This is the real essence of the edge hold on really slick polished snow. The foot and ankle have to exert their movement capability inside the boot to the side of the boot wall.

Once you have this established you can come inside the arc with the hips. The upper body remains tilted toward the outside ski (vertical zipper on the jacket) and this must be established early during the edge change, this move is called counter balancing. If you can use your ankles and feet (proper footbed with right amount of flexibility for foot eversion is critical) do not try to grip in the upper third of the turn.

This is a very delicate point. Ride on the skis edges and increase the edge angles delicately and progressively until the falline. If you move too quickly or use a slight twist or steer, you are lost. Friction or grip is hard to come by during this phase of the turn, so skiers have a tendency to want to over grip. Over gripping comes out in many ways, knee drive, leg extension, steering, none of these methods will guide you to a carved turn.

Once you are at the falline increase the leg extension and drop the hip into the turn. The inside ski must be tipped aggressively through the whole turn, but stay lightly weighted or pressured.

Keeping the hips up over the boot (fore/aft) is an often forgotten golden rule of ice carving. Once you establish the ankle and hip angles, the leg (shin) can drive rather aggressively toward the inside and front corner of the cuff. If you want to shorten the arc or keep a carve on steep ice this is mandatory. Reminder, the ankle, foot side pressure and hip angle have to be in place before you use the shin to pressure the boot. If you use the shin first, you will definitely lose the tail and possibly the whole ski. Hip counter is also an important component of this successful approach to skiing slick, steep ice.

Obviously any upper body rotation, or dropping of the inside hand during this turn is a sure way to lose the ski. Many skiers can hold and carve on good snow with some rotation of the upper body and leaning, but as soon as the snow gets really slick they are lost.

The other important part of ice skiing is using the proper transition movements. If you are using an up or vertical push from the ski edge, you will never carve on ice. You might bite at the end of the turn, but carving will be lost.

You can learn to make turns like this with a solid program of balancing and ski use exercises.


What we could add here is that in the High C part of the arc, where you are in a flexed/bend knee relationship and coming out of transition, both knees should have the same amount of bend for a moment. Tipping the previous stance ski onto the little toe edge is the key, it has to be done gingerly without a big body parts moving, like hips or torso. This is the tenuous or uncertainty phase of the arc. This is why we advocate holding the previous counter through transition. If you make a movement toward the new arc with either extension or hip reversing, you will skid the tails.
First you have to be able to get into some form of this knee, ski and boot relationship.Image


Harald wrote:Max, as we discussed, the true Expert doesn?t focus on hands or edging much, the true Expert?s focus is on pressure.

If pressure does not develop to satisfaction, the skier must look for the source of the problem.

Developing skiers don?t have the capacity to know why pressure is not developing, because they have other issues to over come first, such as leaning, edging or tipping, lack of counter, not enough hip angles.

Once skiers know their turn goal and have experience accomplishing it, they focus on pressure, glide, and connection of turns. This is a sophisticated way of skiing, and takes years of proper movement and mental training to perfect.

For example, I never think about body angles, when I need to reduce turn size and increase hold, I think about increasing pressure under my skis. I am often surprised at my body lean and ski angles when I see my photos, as I never feel that close to the snow or that far over.
Image
Notice that the inside hand is always lower, yet the skis are carving and the body is levered over and angled to maintain the arc and turn size desired. The integrety of the body to hold forces, (pressure) is what you look for when analizing expert skiers.
Ultimately a racer has to deal with pressure, as pressure either makes or robs speed. Great edge hold is not great skiing to a racer. Therefore when someone says to me your hand is low or you are leaning a little, they don?t understand that I?m focusing on glide and reducing pressure, as I can get all the edge hold I need at any time. In fact, I try to reduce edge hold and increase glide and connectivity in my skiing..


And some good stuff in this thread: Carving Steeps
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 3877
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby noobSkier » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:15 pm

Thanks for the advice Jbotti & Max_501...technique is king. Im still leaning towards the speed zone 16ti. The Laser SX looks nice, but I want something shorter radius; likewise with the head lineup.
User avatar
noobSkier
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby jbotti » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:56 pm

HH skied that last season. He loves it. It is a stiff recreational slalom carver that is not very versatile off piste. Diana said she could not ski it in bumps, just way too stiff. As a single purpose on piste carving ski it is great. Sounds like what you are looking for. Just don't expect much or any all mountain capability.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby noobSkier » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:49 pm

jbotti wrote:HH skied that last season. He loves it. It is a stiff recreational slalom carver that is not very versatile off piste. Diana said she could not ski it in bumps, just way too stiff. As a single purpose on piste carving ski it is great. Sounds like what you are looking for. Just don't expect much or any all mountain capability.


Have you tried the new elan SLX fusion? It seems similar to the 16ti, at least specs-wise.
User avatar
noobSkier
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby jbotti » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:48 pm

I own the SLX fusion. Great ski. May be my current favorite slalom carver. Slightly stiffer than the Head ISL non rd. I think the Dynastar is stiffer and a little less user friendly. The SLX can be skied off piste. It’s a little stiff for harder bumps but Max has softened his in bumps and he now loves it for bump skiing. My brother skies it on the east coast on ice and loves it.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby noobSkier » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:14 pm

So I picked up a pair of used SLX but I forgot to check the camber before I bought them. The seller told me he only took them out 8 times and the skis looked good so I didn't have much reason to doubt it. At home I noticed they really don't have much camber, maybe 0.5 inch space in between them when put together. Did I get a dud or is that normal for the slx?
User avatar
noobSkier
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby jbotti » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:19 am

I can check a new pair that I have when I get back home on Monday. This does highlight why I no longer buy used skis. You just never know how used you are getting.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby jbotti » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:57 am

I should also say that there are many trusted sellers on this site who are honest and forthcoming about the usage/days on their skis for sale. In these instances buyers can often get good hardly used skis at a nice discount.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby noobSkier » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:55 am

Thanks jbotti, I was honestly dead set on paying retail but I ended up buying one too many seasons passes and the temptation to save was too great. I'm praying at this point because if it's a dud I can't in good conscience resell it.
User avatar
noobSkier
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Stiff carver for eastern ice

Postby noobSkier » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:31 am

So I just came back from the ski shop, unfortunately they didn't have any SLX but I looked at the camber on new skis and found quite a bit of variance. The Volkl Racetiger sl, Dynastar 16ti, Head Magnum & Rally all have shallow cambers, comparable to my used SLX. On the opposite end, atomic redster, Rossi hero and head Titan all have very deep cambers. Curious to hear what your new SLX is at.
User avatar
noobSkier
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:35 am

Next

Return to Gear

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron