Finally...

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Finally...

Postby Marek » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:12 am

Hi there!
At last, after years of hard work I am pretty sure that I understand how to properly execute (perform) TIPPING. The crucial points were:
- properly selected and tuned boots/footbeds - the LANGES RP saved my skiing life! Good alignment is like an open gate to new dimension... it was for me, anyway. BTW, in Europe hardly anyone cares...
- I havn't recognize at first that so important is continuing tippng efforts throughout all the turn, after understandig and implementing it, puzzle was, well, assembled.

Thanks Harald & Diana for PMTS, The System atracts gradually more ambitious skiers in my country.
Now going to Trentino, my paradise. Happy skiing to All!
Marek.
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Re: Finally...

Postby h.harb » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:34 am

Well done Marek, even the world cup racers don't realize that tipping has to be continuous through the whole radius. Except for Hirscher of course!
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Re: Finally...

Postby GThomas » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:30 am

I echo what Marek said though about hardly anyone in Europe cares
In a "good shop" in austria where i was considering buying boots i asked about canting which to me is under the boot sole or under the binding. The young man said that they can do this and to align my "cuffs" their guy who had worked on the WC circuit would watch me walk in my boots and then adjust them, perhaps im missing the point.
I have spent a lot of time over the last two years working on foot beds myself and this year found my own way to the best situation on skis ive experienced. Upon checking back to an email from Diana two years ago the advise she sent to me was spot on in my new experience.
The next step is trying to understand how not just the fit of the boot but the boots stance angles impacts a given persons morphology, and how to get properly aligned. I know I have issues with my left boot set up, ive put a lot of time money and effort into improving, and the lack of available help within either the UK or where I ski in Austria is to put it mildly most frustrating.
I have read a lot about advise to do the drills but also that the first step is to get your set up and alignment sorted first because otherwise the drills will be harder to impossible to accomplish. It was in modifying the footbed posting in an effort to find best balance on one ski and an ability to tip to either edge that I came through to the best set up but one which still leaves me with a chattering of the inside edge on the left foot.
My left alignment using the square and a mirror shows with my foot beds both knees track fairly straight, however the center of the left knee tracks near as i can tell to be 1/4 inch to the outside of the boot centerline.
Why have I posted this here ? Well because I am delighted for Marek to now be enjoying his skiing so much more and maybe see the light at the end of the tunnel for one, and secondly because standing in a pair of Lange RS boots my friend states my left knee looks straight !
Personaly I have zero understanding as to why given static findings in bare feet, on the foot bed ona flat floor, and in my Raptor shells
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Re: Finally...

Postby Marek » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:38 am

h.harb wrote:Well done Marek, even the world cup racers don't realize that tipping has to be continuous through the whole radius. Except for Hirscher of course!

Thanks Harald, kudos from you motivate me to work and progress! Hirscher, well, he is from Mars, I like his personality btw, but there is somebody to watch in Austria: Gallhuber, her second run in Pyongyang was among te best I saw ever!!
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Re: Finally...

Postby h.harb » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:59 pm

I think it's funny that guys in the shop tells people that they have a guy who worked with the world cup and all you have to do is walk in the boots. What BS.
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Re: Finally...

Postby gaku » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:07 pm

Marek wrote:Hi there!
At last, after years of hard work I am pretty sure that I understand how to properly execute (perform) TIPPING. The crucial points were:
- properly selected and tuned boots/footbeds - the LANGES RP saved my skiing life! Good alignment is like an open gate to new dimension... it was for me, anyway. BTW, in Europe hardly anyone cares...
- I havn't recognize at first that so important is continuing tippng efforts throughout all the turn, after understandig and implementing it, puzzle was, well, assembled.

Thanks Harald & Diana for PMTS, The System atracts gradually more ambitious skiers in my country.
Now going to Trentino, my paradise. Happy skiing to All!
Marek.


I concur with that second notion. Continuous tipping is so excruciatingly hard, and essential. People throw it around like it's an easy thing to achieve, but actually cranking up those angles once lateral ankle movement is exhausted, is challenging. Getting that hip inside the turn, cranking up the CB, increasing the CA necessary to hold edge grip and facilitate early angles ... so many things needing to synthesise. In fact, I so seldomly achieved it I have an epiphany each time I do get it right. "Aha, so that's how one skied."

Of course, despite having my PMTS bullets points with me, it's still a fleeting thing to experience. On a black run last week in Cervinia, I moved down the run mixing brushed carves with edge-locked carves with surprising ease, speed and fluidity. Naturally ecstatic, I took the gondola again to emulate the run. I ended up monkeying myself down the steep. Premature pressure on the outside ski is the mother of all evil. It was just enough to effectively kill tipping and all attempts at recreating that other run.
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Re: Finally...

Postby Max_501 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:41 pm

gaku wrote:Continuous tipping is so excruciatingly hard, and essential. People throw it around like it's an easy thing to achieve, but actually cranking up those angles once lateral ankle movement is exhausted, is challenging.


It shouldn't be "excruciatingly hard". Tip, tip, and tip more. Range of motion isn't used up until the inside hip is on the snow.
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Re: Finally...

Postby gaku » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:47 am

Max_501 wrote:
gaku wrote:Continuous tipping is so excruciatingly hard, and essential. People throw it around like it's an easy thing to achieve, but actually cranking up those angles once lateral ankle movement is exhausted, is challenging.


It shouldn't be "excruciatingly hard". Tip, tip, and tip more. Range of motion isn't used up until the inside hip is on the snow.


"excruciatingly" might be a tad hyperbole! :) But I do find that last "and tip more" difficult to do consistently in different conditions.
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Re: Finally...

Postby h.harb » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:58 am

It's dependant on not only flexing, relaxing the knee and hip on the inside but also the outside leg. Also in the transition, if the uphill leg, extends, it's over. PSIA wants you to extend it and push your Cg downhill, this stupidity is amazing.
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Re: Finally...

Postby Vailsteve » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:57 pm

h.harb wrote:It's dependant on not only flexing, relaxing the knee and hip on the inside but also the outside leg. Also in the transition, if the uphill leg, extends, it's over. PSIA wants you to extend it and push your Cg downhill, this stupidity is amazing.



There’s that word again—relaxing. I LOVE that word! CO Steve was the first person who tried to tell me how you need to “ relax” or “relax into” a turn, while riding the lift at A Basin 3 or 4 seasons ago. Of course at that stage in my PMTS understanding, I had no clue what he really meant.

Now I at least have an inkling of what Harald means. It is such an amazing feeling when you don’t have to push, extend or twist to get the ski to come around. All you have to do is tip!

And yes we all realize there are MANY more layers to this onion, but tipping is a great first start...

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Re: Finally...

Postby skiffie » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:47 pm

Max_501 wrote:
gaku wrote:Continuous tipping is so excruciatingly hard, and essential. People throw it around like it's an easy thing to achieve, but actually cranking up those angles once lateral ankle movement is exhausted, is challenging.


It shouldn't be "excruciatingly hard". Tip, tip, and tip more. Range of motion isn't used up until the inside hip is on the snow.


Is there a drill for this :lol:

(Just to be clear - that's tongue in cheek... mostly. My list of drills is quite long :lol:)
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Re: Finally...

Postby HeluvaSkier » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:48 pm

skiffie wrote:Is there a drill for this :lol:


Yes. This is something I picked up from CSCF a few years ago. NOT a PMTS prescribed drill, but it accomplishes what Max describes when performed correctly. It is so far beyond even advanced learners that it isn’t worth discussing unless I’m coaching FIS racers... and even then it’s hit or miss.

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Re: Finally...

Postby geoffda » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:38 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote:
skiffie wrote:Is there a drill for this :lol:


Yes. This is something I picked up from CSCF a few years ago. NOT a PMTS prescribed drill, but it accomplishes what Max describes when performed correctly. It is so far beyond even advanced learners that it isn’t worth discussing unless I’m coaching FIS racers... and even then it’s hit or miss.

The starting point for this discussion is black level PMTS skiing. Until you have the ability to perform all of the Essentials with full range of motion (or you have some elite athletic gifts like exceptional balance coupled with world cup feet) you likely won't have the necessary movements to support continuous tipping throughout the turn. When you get the point where this can be developed, it isn't really something you can drill. You can (and should) practice tipping garlands and onesies with the focus being on continuous tipping, but that isn't actually enough. There is a critical timing component that can only be developed through skiing. The tipping is continous, but the rate of tipping isn't constant. Plus, the turn has to continue far longer than you might think (based on feel) to finish for speed control. This requires tremendous flexion and CA at the finish. You can see how much of these movements Heluva is applying to work the ski around to get enough finish for speed control. And yet one more thing factors into this. It isn't enough to get the timing right and be continuously tipping. You also have to learn how to do this without ever pushing against the ski with sole of your foot. What we are after is making the ski slice. Of the rare examples of skiers who continuously tip, it is an even smaller number who can demonstrate this without grinding their edges. Consider figuring out how to make all of these things work properly your PhD thesis in skiing. Nobody can hold your hand at this level.

It took me 6 seasons of skiing 100+ days to get to the level where I could work on this and two more 100+ day seasons to finally get this. (My intent isn't to imply that it will take anyone else that long, but it is a serious endeavor to reach this level). Anyway, I literally just figured this out this season over Christmas. I certainly had guidance from Harald and Diana, but at this level, that is all they can really give. You have to understand exactly what you are after and then you just have to go do it. For me, there were also some psychological issues. You have to balance upside down at the top of the turn and you have to resist the urge to aggressively tip too early in the arc. You have to allow speed control to work above the fall line and you also have to be willing to trust that the slicing ski will hold. A slicing ski feels different than a grinding ski and it requires some getting used to. In any case, making true World Cup level slalom turns (with speed control) on a Western Blue level slope requires not only a tremendous level of precision and balance, but also a high level of belief. At least for me, believing that my skis will hold is far more challenging that making the required movements.
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Re: Finally...

Postby Max_501 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:58 pm

Excellent post from Geoff which is gold in my book. And y'all just go it for free!

geoffda wrote:In any case, making true World Cup level slalom turns (with speed control) on a Western Blue level slope requires not only a tremendous level of precision and balance, but also a high level of belief. At least for me, believing that my skis will hold is far more challenging that making the required movements.


Great description of the "tipping point". Nearly every black level PMTS skier that can't/won't put their hip on the snow has a point where they stop tipping. It might be 12" from the snow or 2" from the snow, but they come to a point where the tipping stalls and as Geoff has suggested it is usually psychology rather than physiology that is the culprit.
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Re: Finally...

Postby skiffie » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:12 pm

lol - here is my version of the penguin :mrgreen: http://gph.is/2IeJhEF

I'm not just being a dork btw - someone suggested doing the 'penguin dance' to warm up hands / fingertips. And it really does work!

You also have to learn how to do this without ever pushing against the ski with sole of your foot.


yup, this is the bane of my existence. every time I try to tip /angulate more I end up with a push and have to do some phantoms to get rid of it.

it looks like Heluva is almost in a full squat. just going down that low in my living room, it seems like it would put a ton of pressure on the knees / kneecaps? or is it like HH says in one part of Essentials that it looks like he's in a tough squat but really just transitioning through it so it's not tiring at all?

really enjoyed reading all of those posts - thank you all!! For today I will be happy that I had no skidding on ice :D
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