Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ride"

PMTS Forum

Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ride"

Postby Bun-chan » Wed May 10, 2017 5:15 pm

I hope someone can clarify a couple of things for me.

Question 1)
Mikaela Shiffrin uses the expression, "roll with ankles and knees," in her videos. Is it the same exact movement as the "tipping" in the PMTS or different? I feel the PMTS emphasizes on the lowest part of the leg, i.e., ankle, but not much on knee, maybe because the ankle movement will eventually move the knee movement. I don't know. Here's one of her videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh7KF49GzOc

Question 2)
An extension of the Q1 above: I now realize Harold emphasizes on the importance of bending and flexing of knees in this particular video. Perhaps, what Shiffrin calls "rolling" "knees" is what Harold is demonstrating in this video. He, in fact, says in this video, "Am I rolling my knees?" So, apparently "rolling knees" is part of PMTS, but is it the same thing as what Shiffrin says.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEqXCQLMCBg

Question 3)
What does "Park and Ride" mean? Both Harald and Shiffrin use the expression. Having watched both Shiffrin's and Harold's videos, I think it basically means skiing without much control. But, what does exactly describe? Does it mean both skis are unweighted and not in solid contact with snow? Does it mean extending legs to push? Why is it called "Park and Ride"?

Thank you,
Hiroshi Asada
Bun-chan
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:13 am
Location: Westport, Connecticut

Re: Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ri

Postby Obrules15 » Thu May 11, 2017 6:43 am

Bun-chan wrote:I hope someone can clarify a couple of things for me.

Question 1)
Mikaela Shiffrin uses the expression, "roll with ankles and knees," in her videos. Is it the same exact movement as the "tipping" in the PMTS or different? I feel the PMTS emphasizes on the lowest part of the leg, i.e., ankle, but not much on knee, maybe because the ankle movement will eventually move the knee movement. I don't know. Here's one of her videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh7KF49GzOc

Question 2)
An extension of the Q1 above: I now realize Harold emphasizes on the importance of bending and flexing of knees in this particular video. Perhaps, what Shiffrin calls "rolling" "knees" is what Harold is demonstrating in this video. He, in fact, says in this video, "Am I rolling my knees?" So, apparently "rolling knees" is part of PMTS, but is it the same thing as what Shiffrin says.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEqXCQLMCBg

Question 3)
What does "Park and Ride" mean? Both Harald and Shiffrin use the expression. Having watched both Shiffrin's and Harold's videos, I think it basically means skiing without much control. But, what does exactly describe? Does it mean both skis are unweighted and not in solid contact with snow? Does it mean extending legs to push? Why is it called "Park and Ride"?

Thank you,
Hiroshi Asada


Question 1--I think that PMTS doesn't emphasize use of the knees because they don't want you to focus on knee movement to initiate tipping. The knee movement does come as part of the kinetic chain (which is emphasized) and if you watch the video of Diana tipping on steeps her knee definitely moves much more laterally the more she is tipping, but she still initiates the movement with her ankles.

Question 3 -- I visualize park and ride as using the hip to tip instead of initiating tipping at the ankles and allowing the kinetic chain to determine how everything else moves. Basically picking a spot/position that your hip can be in and where your skis are tipped up on their edges and grossly plunking (parking) your body in that position and not adjusting or moving (riding) until it's time to transition to the next turn.

Per PMTS tipping (I think) you are supposed to tip starting with your ankles to initiate the kinetic chain which will involve movement of the knees and hips but it is a dynamic situation. The tipping is progressive throughout the turn and the movement of the knees and hips supports that tipping and counteracting as needed.

Simply put I define Park and Ride as tipping with your hip (gross motor movements) vs. PMTS as tipping with your ankles (fine motor movements)
Obrules15
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 4:46 pm

Re: Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ri

Postby Bun-chan » Thu May 11, 2017 7:21 am

Obrules15,

Thank you for your Park and Ride explanation. I think your explanation makes sense.

Yes, I understand PMTS focuses more on ankles. I still wonder what Shiffrin means by "knees." It may still amount to the same thing that PMTS achieves.
Bun-chan
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:13 am
Location: Westport, Connecticut

Re: Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ri

Postby DougD » Thu May 11, 2017 10:33 am

The thread linked below includes a discussion of "park & ride" by a certified PMTS coach. Geoffda's post as quoted by ToddW is worth very attentive reading.

http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5157

When Harald asked, "Am I rolling my knees", the question was rhetorical. The answer was and is "No". Knee rolling is not used in PMTS skiing. The knees may "roll" as a result of movements lower down the kinetic chain (viz., tipping and flexing), but they are not actively "rolled" as this would require gross muscle movements that PMTS strives to avoid.

Except for Harald and a few coaches, few participants on this forum (including me) have the skiing expertise even to explain what Schiffrin IS doing, never mind analyzing what she SAYS she's doing. For the typical recreational skier seeking to improve, it's not necessary or helpful to debate the technique of elite WC skiers. Only those who can ski with something near their movements and energy levels can understand what that's really like. Having skied with multiple ex-WC racers, I realize I'm so far beneath them that analyzing what they do (did) on a course would be foolish.

Fortunately, a WC skier and coach who IS qualified has already done the analysis for us. He identified the Primary and Essential Movements used by the best WC skiers and assembled them into an instructional system aimed at everyday (but motivated) recreational skiers. The system is named PMTS. The learning progression is laid out in ACBAES1, ACBAES2 and Essentials. Follow those books in order, work hard and your skiing will improve.
Last edited by DougD on Thu May 11, 2017 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
DougD
 
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:22 am
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ri

Postby jbotti » Thu May 11, 2017 10:35 am

Park and Ride is not exclusively defined by hip dumping. Any form of riding the edges that does not include bending the ski and the movements required to do that (CA, CB, proper fore aft balance, free foot pull back etc) is park and ride. Park and ride arcs do not tighten and in fact they get wider as speed increases. Anyone can park and ride. Few can control their speed in tight edge lock carved turns.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 1803
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

Re: Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ri

Postby ToddW » Thu May 11, 2017 10:37 am

Bun-chan wrote: I still wonder what Shiffrin means by "knees."


Shiffrin is a world-class athlete, not a world-class teacher. "ankles and knees" refers to the visual outcome of the movements she makes. And it's true -- the knees do move when one tips at the feet/ankles.

Here's the catch: if a skier thinks consciously to move the knee, he'll use the wrong muscles and achieve the wrong outcome. Said differently, mentioning the knees is bad teaching.

PMTS describes the movements that skiers need to make as inputs to control their skiing behavior rather than describing the visual appearance of the eventual outcome. To achieve the "ankles and knees" that Shiffrin achieves in her own skiing, focus exclusively on foot tipping and the other essentials that Harald has identified. The "knees" will occur as an automatic outcome.
.
ToddW
 
Posts: 472
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:41 pm
Location: live: Westchester (NY) / ski: Killington

Re: Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ri

Postby DougD » Thu May 11, 2017 10:48 am

jbotti wrote: Park and ride arcs do not tighten and in fact they get wider as speed increases. Anyone can park and ride. Few can control their speed in tight edge lock carved turns.

Ain't that the truth.

And if a skier gets caught on an edge-locked ski with his weight behind his heels, the ski rails and accelerates with little or no arching... straight toward the trees or whatever its aimed at. One of the most frightening and dangerous moves in skiing... as Geoffda and Harald pointed out.
DougD
 
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:22 am
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ri

Postby Bun-chan » Thu May 11, 2017 11:47 am

DougD wrote:The thread linked below includes a discussion of "park & ride" by a certified PMTS coach. Geoffda's post as quoted by ToddW is worth very attentive reading.

http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5157

When Harald asked, "Am I rolling my knees", the question was rhetorical. The answer was and is "No". Knee rolling is not used in PMTS skiing. The knees may "roll" as a result of movements lower down the kinetic chain (viz., tipping and flexing), but they are not actively "rolled" as this would require gross muscle movements that PMTS strives to avoid.

Except for Harald and a few coaches, few participants on this forum (including me) have the skiing expertise even to explain what Schiffrin IS doing, never mind analyzing what she SAYS she's doing. For the typical recreational skier seeking to improve, it's not necessary or helpful to debate the technique of elite WC skiers. Only those who can ski with something near their movements and energy levels can understand what that's really like. Having skied with multiple ex-WC racers, I realize I'm so far beneath them that analyzing what they do (did) on a course would be foolish.

Fortunately, a WC skier and coach who IS qualified has already done the analysis for us. He identified the Primary and Essential Movements used by the best WC skiers and assembled them into an instructional system aimed at everyday (but motivated) recreational skiers. The system is named PMTS. The learning progression is laid out in ACBAES1, ACBAES2 and Essentials. Follow those books in order, work hard and your skiing will improve.


I like the article. Thanks!
Bun-chan
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:13 am
Location: Westport, Connecticut

Re: Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ri

Postby Bun-chan » Thu May 11, 2017 11:50 am

ToddW wrote:
Bun-chan wrote: I still wonder what Shiffrin means by "knees."


Shiffrin is a world-class athlete, not a world-class teacher. "ankles and knees" refers to the visual outcome of the movements she makes. And it's true -- the knees do move when one tips at the feet/ankles.


I think you are right. She must be using the phrase used by her coaches.
Bun-chan
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:13 am
Location: Westport, Connecticut

Re: Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ri

Postby h.harb » Thu May 11, 2017 5:21 pm

First, it's not Shiffrin skiing in these videos, she is doing a voice over about what she thinks is happening. She's not PMTS trained, so there will be confusion and often she, as Todd says, doesn't really know what she does. She maybe a world class skier, but not a world class coach. This is common amongst world cup skiers. They don't know how to describe their own skiing, let alone that of others. I would put too much stock in what she says. One example, there was a discussion on my Facebook page this winter with the Canadian speed skier. He had no idea what he was talking about, even on a world Cup course.
User avatar
h.harb
 
Posts: 6772
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:08 pm
Location: Dumont, Colorado

Re: Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ri

Postby Bun-chan » Thu May 11, 2017 6:32 pm

h.harb wrote:First, it's not Shiffrin skiing in these videos, she is doing a voice over about what she thinks is happening. She's not PMTS trained, so there will be confusion and often she, as Todd says, doesn't really know what she does. She maybe a world class skier, but not a world class coach. This is common amongst world cup skiers. They don't know how to describe their own skiing, let alone that of others. I would put too much stock in what she says. One example, there was a discussion on my Facebook page this winter with the Canadian speed skier. He had no idea what he was talking about, even on a world Cup course.


Harald, thanks for your comment. Yes, I am aware that Shiffrin is not the one skiing in the video. She is just a narrator here supposedly explaining what's in it. Also, I agree that instructing and executing are two different things, and she must be using the words and phrases that are used by her coaches. She is still 22, but an amazing and accomplished athlete.

By the way, I am a big believer of PMTS. I attended one of your camps at A-Basin some years ago. I read your books and watched videos. When I came across your first book at a bookstore by accident many years ago, I was so happy and excited since pretty much everyone back then ridiculed (and they still do) narrow stance skiing. You really changed my skiing -- thank you!

In any case, the reason that I raised this question was that you said somewhere that expert skiers use PMTS (they may not call it PMTS) movements or something to that extent. Correct me if I'm wrong. Now, Shiffrin is a great skier, so I assumed she must be using the same type of movement. I know she is not PMTS trained. Or, do you think her technique is a little bit different from PMTS? For example, she talks about "ankles" playing a big role ... but PMTS does not talk about "knees."

Well, I really appreciate so many people responded and share their views and analysis. I continue to watch your videos and re-visit your books to improve my skiing.
Bun-chan
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:13 am
Location: Westport, Connecticut

Re: Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ri

Postby Ken » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:19 pm

Keep in mind the difference between intentional movements and incidental movements. We intentionally tip the foot by inverting the ankle. The knee may flex a bit sideways incidentally. We do not push the knee sideways.

Our movements are dynamic. They're never static, never locked in. As the turn progresses we increase the tipping, increase the lightening of the inside foot by increasing the flex of the inside leg, increase the counter balance, increase the counter acting, increase the angle our legs make against the snow surface. We never Park in a position and Ride the turn around.
Rooster today
Feather duster tomorrow

VIDEO OF NOT ME
Ken
 
Posts: 768
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:23 pm
Location: Washington, the state

Re: Shiffrin: "roll with ankles and knees," not "Park and Ri

Postby Bun-chan » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:56 am

Thak you.
Bun-chan
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:13 am
Location: Westport, Connecticut


Return to Primary Movements Teaching System

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest