Trouble getting back to the front of the boot....

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Trouble getting back to the front of the boot....

Postby dawgcatching » Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:39 pm

At the end of aggressive carved turns, especially in GS, I find myself drifing toward the tail of the ski toward the end of the turn (which is okay) but unable to get back on the front of the boot during the transition.

During the turn, I am flexing my inside leg while maintaining a straight outside leg, which is creating a strong angulated position. As the turn progresses, I am moving toward the tail, which brings me out of my carve and allows me to generate speed from the tail. It is at this moment I want to initiate the new turn, 1) partially by relaxing my downhill leg to end the old turn and start the new one (get my CM moving downhill) and 2) partially by getting to the front of the boot (so I can initially bend the tip of the ski and tighten up the turn initially). I feel that I am only doing #1 well. I am relaxing the downhill leg and transferring weight, sending my CM down the fall line as a result, and generating edge angle early in the turn. Unfortunately, I feel that I am still somewhat riding the tail of the ski at the beginning of the new turn. This results in a turn that is determined only by the angulation I set up, not by fine-tuning the arc by pressuring the tip/tail as needed.

During the transition, how can I get my hips forward to the front of the boot for the start of the next turn? Any drills or cues that I should be looking for will be helpful.
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Postby Mr. T » Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:09 am

Just a question dawgcatching. Are you a strong skier? I like to do the same and I like to ride the tails from time to time to jump back in the middle, but I have massive thighs... It could just be a matter of getting a
little stronger. Then maybe no, for I do not know you.
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Postby piggyslayer » Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:26 pm

Hi dawgcatching,

Here is and advice from a recreational skier. Lets hope Harald will be back answering all questions.

Did you try practicing weighted release?
Especially the exaggerated von Grunigen move in which the transition happens on the weighted downhill ski and uphill ski is lifted forces you body to aggressively move into the next turn. I do not think you will be able to do it sitting back, you simply need to be over the ski sweet spot to do it.

Simplified drill and way of skiing I use a lot:
Instead of lightening only one leg try shortening both legs (using your hamstrings) to get powerful two footed release, follow with phantom move when your body is in place for the next turn. Using you hamstrings will move you up over the ski sweet spot.

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Postby piggyslayer » Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:18 pm

Two more ideas that I think may help.

Idea 1: The drill this group raves about:
The Two Footed Release made from a full stopped position (Anyone P2 page 48) (an its alternative Release from the uphill edge) see some other posts, for example ?My Favorite Drill? by ?The Big Show? (http://realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=32)
To perform this exercise you need to be in good fore-aft position, if you sit back you will just go straight without turning and will not be able to complete the exercise.
So it just may work for you as a drill.

Idea 2: Ski on one leg (see some of the recent posts).
This is not a panacea for all skiing problems, but it is easy done only if fore-aft position is right. So it may help as well (some similarites to the weighted release drill).

I am curious what happens when you try to use the weighted release described in the previous post.

Good luck!!

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Postby Mr. M » Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:26 pm

Hi dawgcatching,

I saw that you?ve posted the same question on epic forum and it produced quite a lot of opinions exchange. Would you be able to summarize the results so far and your experiences practicing the moves?

Also, I am a little bit confused since it seem like you guys on epic understand each other while giving different descriptions for the same move sequence. F. e. Pierre is saying:

?you dorsiflex the ankle and open the knee?,

ssh is saying :

?For a definition of dorsiflexion, see here (http://whymyfoothurts.com/conditions/biomechanics.html). In short, dorsiflexion is drawing the toes towards the shin?

and one of your posts says:

?Can you elaborate on the definition of active dorsiflexion? Is this moving up and down with your hips while the ankle stays at approximately the same angle? ?.

Is it possible to describe the moves from the kinetic chain point of view (like we have it for lift & tip sequence)?

Thanks,
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Postby BigE/Erik » Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:02 am

Without seeing it, here are some simple minded suggestions:

1) Ensure that you finish the previous turn; get to neutral before starting the next one. In the hurry to get the next turn started, it sounds like you may not be completing the last one.

2) Do the "Strong Arm" excercise. The inside hip might move more forward, and be closer to neutral.

3) The Epic solution: If I read it correctly, extend the inner leg while keeping the ankle highly flexed. ( dorsiflexion is toes towards shin ) This will drive the inside hip forward.

4) Keep shoulders above toe pieces; you simply may have gone back too far.

Hope this helps!
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Postby BigE » Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:29 pm

There is a post on this page by Viper that shows a skier going through a turn.

A later post by Fastman describes each image in detail.

http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultimate ... 002156;p=3


Hope this helps.
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Postby jclayton » Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:13 pm

Hi everybody , just back from a week in the Pyrene?s with lots of lovely powder ( and a pulled calf muscle but it was worth it )

The description of a turn by Fastman in Epic is ,I think, quite misleading . He talks about extending the inside (soon to be the new outside) leg . I would think this could promote the old habit of stepping onto the new outside , or weighted, ski . For me I get a much stronger feeling of cross under if I concentrate on the feel of the retraction of the outside ski , the extension of the inside ski happens almost automatically and much more smoothly and dynamically .

Driving the inside knee and hip forward would also restrict inside knee angulation . Try sliding the inside knee 8 or 10 inches forward and see the difference in maximum possible angulation. If you look closely at the photos his skis are almost level . I have just been skiing with an ex Spanish team menber , Ainhoa Ibarra , who reached 8th position in World Cup Giant Slalom overall ( I think about 6 - 7 years ago ) . She had been using the technique of pulling back the inside ski with her hamstrings for quite a few years to keep centred .

I would be happy if someone corrects any misunderstandings I might have of Fastmans post on Epic but I think he has it " ass about tit " ( pardon the Australianism )
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Postby BigE/Erik » Mon Feb 02, 2004 8:06 am

I'm certainly nowhere near the expert that you've skied with, but
I think Fastman is talking about the extension of the inner leg ibeing rearwards, with a highly flexed ankle, thus driving the hip forward. It's surely not vertically.

You may be talking about exactly the same thing as pulling the leg back, as it does have to extend when you pull it back, doesn't it?

Cheers!
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Postby jclayton » Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:18 am

Hi BigE ,
if thats what Fastman means then it makes better sense , I understood him as meaning a vertical extension . Apologies for my misunderstanding .

It was interesting skiing with someone that good , all those years of discipline and sacrifice and they still enjoy to the utmost just skiing around the mountain . Also interesting , she was recognised on the street in Austria or Switzerland but here in Spain they wouldn't have known her from a bar of soap .
J.C.
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Postby Hobbit » Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:27 pm

Quote [
There is a post on this page by Viper that shows a skier going through a turn.
]

Just to throw in my 2 cents...

I think that the slide sequence shown is contrary to PMTS. The book 2 and video shows that the stance leg should be shortened during transition. I believe that flexed knees allow for the quick edge change and correct carved turn initiation. If you watch Harald?s tape, he sits down during the carved turn transition while the skier in the picture sequence stand up.
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Postby BigE/Erik » Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:26 am

OK. I see that too.

I had the fortune two weeks ago to see the Huron Alpine Development Team running gates in practice. These skiers are 1 or 2 steps from the National Team. They went so low in the compression that it would be physically impossible to organize the legs for the next turn without some upwards motion.

Imagine the photos of any World Cup GS run, when the skiers almost touch their glutes to their heels. They obviously don't ski down the slope at that height throughout the run. So there must be some room for upwards motion.

This really need clarification.
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Postby BigE » Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:40 am

To really address the topic though, I got a great suggestion from my instructor last weekend. He said one could try touching the toes to the top of the boot. It stopped me from getting too far back!
:D
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Postby Bluey » Thu Feb 05, 2004 8:34 am

This thread has made me think about the many times I would be finishing a turn and not be in the right position....specifically it made me think about what actions I tried to take to recover and get back to the front of the boot....or the better question I started asking myself was.... how did I let myself drift towards the back of the boots.......

HH contributed his version to the answer to this in his earlier post "For/aft movements to acquire balance" .......and in fact HH's suggestions are covered by in part by Big E, piggyslayer and JC. above.

Essentially it appears to me that its about setting up a strong early balance by
1. the need to pull the feet back under the hips early in the turn and continuous tipping of the free foot throughout all of the turn
2. then the use of the FF during the transfer....keep it back under the hips.
3. also, when the feet are under the hips.... then don't over pressure the front of the boots.
4. and finally, but not least, keeping a strong inside arm position. Also Think UBLB coordination to assist with soft edging. Skiing is not all about hard edging.

In summary, I think the outcome/bottom of the turn is born out of the balancing actions at the begining of the turn ( Hi- C ).
It logically follows that HH's suggestion of using the force is what gives you time to set up your balance for the new turn and therefore it gives the ski the power/stores the energy in it to take you into the new turn.....

My thinking's starting to lose clarity.

Hooroo for the weekend....I gotta go ....I'll be back in a few days


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Postby gravity » Sat Feb 07, 2004 2:49 pm

Folks, too much analysis. Be careful, you're going to turn into a bunch of over analytical PSIAers. Skiing mechanics has a definite element of common sense. :lol:

There's a common sense approach to this problem. If a skier is actively moving their mass down the hill, then the skier will find the front of their boot regardless of where they are in the turn.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that while Dawgcatching is weighting the back of the ski towards the end of the turn, Dawgcatching has stopped that ever critical element of continuous movement down the hill.

A really good every day example is the hockey stop. Ever notice how sometimes a great series of turns ends with a crappy stop that leaves you feeling unbalanced; your toes are crammed into the front of the boot; your weight on the back of the boot's liner? Well, that stop is crappy because you chose to stop moving your mass down the hill.

Dawgcatching? What says you?
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