Movement Analysis of my Skiing From PMTS Folks

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Movement Analysis of my Skiing From PMTS Folks

Postby Guest » Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:13 pm

I recently posted a video of myself over at epicski.com (here: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=24136 ) and solicited input regarding critiques, comments, etc. Since PMTS theory has piqued my interest, I'd like to put it to the test and ask for PMTS comments about my style, technique, and where my weaknesses are located. This is of interest to me as I plan to use both PSIA and PMTS approaches to my skiing to see which is more effective and which speak to my particular needs.

So, if you have time, view the file at epic and cross-post your comments here. I'm eager to hear what input PMTS folks will add.

Thanks,

B
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Postby Ken » Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:33 pm

Here's what I see, from top down...
1) Hands pulling across the body before the turn pulling the upper torso toward the hill...the wrong way.
2) Rising up (up unweight) to change edges for no good reason, e. g., breakable crust or mashed-potatoes heavy crud.
3) Strong steering from the femur.
4) Lots of skid during the turn
5) distance between the feet seems to vary for no good reason...an indication of something wrong with technique (not the problem, but an indication of an underlying problem).
6) Weight on both skis which takes away form the carving effort of either ski.

What I'd strive to do: http://www.harbskisystems.com/olk1.htm

I read through the postings on Epic, and I want to gag (sorry folks). I sure can't ski better with all the niggling little items to change and precisely when to change them. Maybe somebody can understand all that and put it into practice, but not me. Try this. Think only of the soles of your feet and use the rest of your body to just balance. Edge with the feet and ankles, and use the entire rest of your body to balance. Don't give it a thought. When you can do that and put all your weight on the new outside ski before you begin your turn, then you can start some more advanced techniques. For now, for PMTS, forget about everything except using your feet & ankles to edge, stand on the new outside ski before you start your turn (inside ski off the snow), and edge with that foot & ankle. Be patient...let the ski turn you; don't you turn the ski. When that is smooth, start the phantom edging. It all works amazingly well. Just balance...centered fore & aft and balanced.

I took beginner PSIA teaching clinics, and when free skiing with a terrific Level III examiner, using my PMTS technique, all he had to say was, "good flow," except when he picked up on some real mistakes I was making. When skiing with less knowledgeable PSIA trainers, I was told all the wrong things I was doing...feet too close together, hands wrong, head wrong, etc., etc.

PM me with your email address for a .doc file you'd find interesting and, if have a broadband connection, a video file. These are HH skiing, I have them saved on this computer, but lost the original web links. HHCarve.ave and HHcarvedetail.doc. If someone else has the links, pls post them.


Ken
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VIDEO OF NOT ME
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Postby Joseph » Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:13 pm

Ben, I presume.

You seem to have most of the elements that will get you your level II pin. If that is a real goal for you, then ganbate as the Japanese would say. The problem with asking us for advice, is that half of us on this forum are folks who have thrown our PSIA pins in the woods, and the other half are recreational skiers who probably wished that they could have thrown their PSIA instructor in the woods for all the bad skiing information they got.

The truth of the matter is, that if you ever want to progress to any measureable degree beyond the level at which you are skiing right now, you will need to rebuild your skiing from the ground up. This would be the part where the doctor comes in and says, "I'm sorry sir, but you have everything!"

Almost every skiing movement that you are making is inefficient and has (for our skiing goals) an undesirable effect on the ski. You have a chronic up move, classic rotation of the torso into the turn, you steer the ski, you bank into each turn, you have no choice but to keep near equal weight on both feet and you have a horrid case of the patrol plant. As a result--low edge angles, skidding not carving, tail wash, you name it.

I'm not saying this to be mean, or offend you in any way. I remember well (because it was not that long ago that I had one of those PSIA pins) that I would have given anything for some concrete feedback that both made sense and helped me to improve my skiing. I looked everywhere for a coach that would tell me, "You're not doing it," and then could tell me why. Honesty can sometimes be the most sincere kindness that you can give to another human being. A good example of this would be the poor person who's 'friends' never had the guts to tell that person what a terrible singer they are. As a result they find out by becoming the joke on American idol--on national television. Right now, Ben, you are that guy.

The good news is, that you are among friends--almost every one of us in this forum has been there and heard the same bad news. If you truly want to pursue skiing excellence, we welcome that and can help steer you in that direction.

First, you should really examine what your true goals are. Do you want to get a level II for the pin, or is the PSIA way your image of effecient and effective skiing. Define your goal--do you want the pin, or want to be a better skier. If you honestly just want to succeed within that organization, that's fine. However, coming to us for skiing advice may not help you in that regard. If your goal is efficient and effective expert skiing you probably need to change what your image of good skiing is. My advice is this:

Get book one (Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier--yellow not orange)
You may see this as a sales pitch, but that book has changed the skiing lives of most of us here, honestly. Go through this book from cover to cover. Do all the exercises. Get the video and watch it--a lot. Learn how to release, transfer and engage the ski without steering. Learn the basic phantom move. You really need to break your skiing down at the most basic level. Then, you need to go to a camp. You have far too many bad habits (for our skiing goals) to really correct without coaching. A PMTS camp is the best way to do this. I'm not going to lie, Ben, you have a long road ahead to really rebuild your skiing. But it may be the best choice you ever make in skiing. It can put you on the road to fulfilling your skiing goals if taken seriously. Best of luck, Joseph
Joseph
 

Postby piggyslayer » Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:15 pm

HHCarve.ave and HHcarvedetail.doc. If someone else has the links, pls post them.


Look at "Comparison of Technique -- TTS & PMTS" thread starting post by Skier Synergy
http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=304

By the way, I have not read any of new Jay posts for long time.
Jay R U there?

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Postby *SCSA » Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:42 pm

It's easy to be the Apprentice right now. Bosox, Patsies. The he/she/it is feeling as confident as a hooker in new shoes and has been drinking New England coolaid, fer sure. :lol:

Now on to your post.

The Apprentice says it good. If you really want to improve, you have to be willing to take it on the chin. Or in my case, take it on the collar bone. :wink:

Hah ha hah.

You come here for advice, it comes in one flavor, one flavor only. You have to be willing... for the he/she/its to tell it like it is. There's just a much higher standard here.

Before I skied with HH this last time I thought I had it going on. I did, but I was really sloppy. Then HH called me a hack, then I almost quit, then I started listening and watching, then I ran into him. :lol: If you saw me then and now, you wouldn't recognize the difference. I want to ski great. Not just great, I want to dominate all mountain. The he/she/its that hang-out here, while their goals may not be as "extreme" (SCSA extreme? No? :lol: ) as mine, we all share one common purpose -- to make great turns.

You wanna make great turns, you've come to the right place. You just gotta want it.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:39 pm

Joseph, that was a very measured reply, but have you thought about it that this man want to get a job teaching, being paid for it? If he follows your advice where does that leave him, are you going to offer him a paid teaching job when he skis like you want him to?

If not, allow him to go after a certification that will get him a little bit extra money, but you said as much. He now has to weigh the benefits of a skiing makeover which can be expensive with no teaching job to pay for it or go after his certification and improve his skiing through the free clinics offered by his ski area.

He, like millions of others, may never ski like you, but hey, there are choices to be made. Throwing his pin into the woods or keeping it and make some money. Though it may seem so sometimes, ski teaching is not a benevolent volunteer action, as professionals they need to be paid, so if it sounds that it is about the money and other perks, it is.

Regards....

....Ott
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Postby Joseph » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:15 pm

It's never about skiing like we want people to. We offer an alternative model for effective skiing, and often when people see this alternative it changes their goals and motivations. If he wants to change his skiing for the better, and sees PMTS as a method to take him there, we welcome it. I would hope that this would in no way prevent him from making money working in a ski school. Not that there's much money to be made there anyway, but if that is the key motivation for pursuing PSIA certificaiton, then I encourage him to pursue his level II and get the dollar raise--or whatever it is. If his motivation is to ski better, I would encourage him to explore an alternative model of good skiing. Watch us ski, watch them ski. Look at our technical material, look at their technical material. People need to set their own goals to succeed in anything.

Joseph
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Postby Ott Gangl » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:59 pm

That's reasonable enough for me, Joseph....Ott
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Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde

Postby John Mason » Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:39 pm

There a many many schizo ski instructors out there that do what they have to do to get their PSIA levels then teach PMTS.

Many of the instructors I met at the PMTS instructor camp in November are in this boat.

If your question is how to take your video and pass your level 2 - go with the Epic advice.

If your question is I want to ski better, then give primary movements a try.

I had a similar discussion with John Clendenon as he has a national demo team member working for him. John, though one of the most skilled rotary technicians on the planet, rejects pivoting-twisting-steering the feet or skis. He will put a student on his ski deck, much like Harald in a carver camp and rebuild your movement patterns from the ground up. A carver camp from Harald would be excellent as well. Anyway, back to the subject, John said the Demo team member skis one way personally and when he teaches for John, but goes schizo when he needs to work with PSIA.

I would think this would be a maddening situation for those with feet in both camps as anyone that has done it knows which way from direct experience produces more efficient skiing for themselves and their students.

I'm not an instructor but this little schizo effect has been a much discussed subject of mine with instructors I meet in my travels.

Some ski schools, even though they are not PMTS schools, do honor certifications from either organization. However, from what everyone has told me that has done both, the PMTS certifications are much harder than PSIA.

Hopefully some Jekyll and Hydes out there that haven't totally left PSIA and "threw their pins" can add their personal experience.

Regardless of where this discussion goes, since we have now digressed away from your question of basic skiing advice, to politics, the advice to get the book and video are very good. Also, you do have a PMTS cert instructor in wisconsin you could seek out. He also happens to be an excellent poster on Epic. I'm referring to Arcmeister - aka Roger Kane. (somehow i have the idea you're from WI).

Also, PM me. We could snag some turns perhaps. You can add your 2 cents worth on this less than 2 year skier.

Ott, since you're sure to read this, I'm going to Akron Tuesday next week. Want to ski? Is there any snow left out your way? I'm working that evening but can play during the day. (hear that Ott - I'm working - like I always do)
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Postby Joseph » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:27 am

I have one more thing to add to the discussion. Most people have an image of good skiing. I would like to offer a true story that I hope will clarify what I mean when I say, "Change your image of effective skiing,".

Last April, Glen (my business partner, President of North East Ski Systems), Rich Messer and I, were skiing together the day before PMTS accreditation at A-Basin. Needless to say, Rich was coaching us. We were working on our personal skiing and having a nice time of it. Glen is another PSIA pin in the woods guy, who had quit PSIA two years prior after attending a level III exam prep clinic.

While we were taking off our boots at the end of the day, a gentleman--probably mid 30's--approached Glen and told him something to the effect of, "You are the most beautiful skier that I have ever seen in my life." He meant it too. The look on his face was one of awe. Glen might as well have walked on water to get there by the look on the guy's face. Glen and he began to speak and this guy told him that he was in the same boat that Glen was in two seasons ago--going for level III pin somewhere in Washington. Meanwhile his two friends (presumably instructors) began to chat with Rich and me. During a lull in our conversation, Rich and I both overhead the first gentlemen say to Glen something to the effect of, "Who are you? You must be like a PSIA demo team member or something."

Rich, Glen and I all burst out laughing so hard that we almost fell out of our chairs. It was instantaneous and the look on the gentleman's face was now one of shock. We were privy to a key piece of information--that Glen had spent the past two years trying to discard all of the movements that he had been told to do at his prep clinic and prior.

The following day, I recognized this gentleman on the hill. He took about an hour out of his skiing time in Colorado to watch Harald talking to us about teaching in-boot exercises to first time skiers. We were just a group of people standing on the side of the hill, and our friend from the previous day was well out of earshot. He wanted to see us ski again.

I don't offer this story for any other reason than to help clarify what I mean when I say, "Change your image, or model of effective skiing."
Clearly, this guy's image was changed. Not that things like this happen everywhere we go. One more comment about the look of shock when we laughed at the Demo Team comment. He asked Glen about the demo team, because that was his image of effective skiing--as it is the image for many instructors. Clearly it was not ours, as we found humor in it. In fact it was then, as it is now, nearly the opposite of our image of effective skiing, thus the laughter. The look of shock, I think, was due to the fact that he had given Glen what was, in his mind, the highest level of praise that he could give a skier. This was his image of the best skiers in the world. When we did not react as he'd expected, he was clearly confused by it.

As I said before, this doesn't happen everywhere we go, but it does happen frequently. I think the most helpful thing in my skiing evolution was the first time that I saw a true PMTS skier in full stride. This totally changed my perception of what good skiing was, even after studying the books for a full season. I saw where I wanted to take my skiing. I think that it is important for both students and teachers of this sport to have an image of effective skiing in their mind. I think the best part about PMTS though, is that we not only have good models of effective and efficient expert skiing, but also a clear roadmap for skiers to follow in order to get there.


Joseph
Joseph
 

Analysis of My Video

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:30 am

Joseph wrote:It's never about skiing like we want people to. We offer an alternative model for effective skiing, and often when people see this alternative it changes their goals and motivations. If he wants to change his skiing for the better, and sees PMTS as a method to take him there, we welcome it. I would hope that this would in no way prevent him from making money working in a ski school. Not that there's much money to be made there anyway, but if that is the key motivation for pursuing PSIA certificaiton, then I encourage him to pursue his level II and get the dollar raise--or whatever it is. If his motivation is to ski better, I would encourage him to explore an alternative model of good skiing. Watch us ski, watch them ski. Look at our technical material, look at their technical material. People need to set their own goals to succeed in anything.

Joseph


This is exactly what I'm doing, Joseph -- examining the systems. I will be taking the Level II exam soon and I am not asking for advice with regard to that exam. I am simply opening my eyes to see what PMTS may have to offer and trying to do so in an unbiased light. I'm also interested in testing what PMTS has to offer. I'm a bit skeptical as to claims of needing to rebuild my skiing from the ground up. Perhaps it's true and I won't discount that theory entirely but I am (defensively?) resilient to that idea. I used to race, have skied for many years and feel generally in control on the hill. Perhaps PMTS offers something revolutionary for me -- I'm beginning to explore that possibility.

On that note, my exploration in ski instruction and technique is not about earning money but is about which system is the best and offers the best process for myself and my students. I offer my video to hear objective critique about it so that I can measure that against the suggestions I received over on Epic. I plan to compare the comments during the late season/summer, read up on Harald's material, and make an objective assessment of the systems during such time.

I would welcome continued technical comments and critiques. A short analysis by HH, if he is available, would be welcome in this regard as well for it would help in my pursuit of the most efficient and dynamic form of skiing and ski instruction.

Best,

Ben
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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:26 am

>>> but goes schizo when he needs to work with PSIA. <<<

It's about the student , not the skiing prowess of the instructor. It is not doing the student a favor to teach him a system one day in one area that does not have continuity the next day in another area. If an instructor teaches PMTS, fine, but he should apprise his student of the places he can continue his PMTS educatioon, not go back to his home area and take a lesson with the PSIA progression. Stick with one or the other.

John, yes there is snow at Boston Mills and Tuesday may be a good day to hook up, PM me and I'll give you my phone number so you can call me when you are ready to go out, Boston Mills is only 20 minutes from Akron.

...Ott
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Postby Joseph » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:40 am

Ben,

Hope this helps to give you an overview of what PMTS is about, and where your skiing fits within our system.

First, every movement that we strive to make in PMTS is to either establish or help maintain balance.

You have many superfluous movements in your skiing, some of which actually hinder your ability to balance. For example, you lean or bank into each turn. This has the effect of removing pressure from your stance ski, thereby inhibiting your ability to balance on it. In order for the body to move effectively to the inside of the turn, one must first establish balance on the stance ski, then counterbalance with the upper body to allow the hips to fall to the inside of the turn. Otherwise pressure falls to the inside ski and the outside ski will wash out, causing a skidded turn.

Second, accuracy and efficiency of movements are paramount. The movements that we make produce a defined and desirable result, with the least amount of effort.

This is where the phantom move will change your skiing. You have a clear tendency to steer your inside ski, which can be seen in your video. The diverging ski is a dead give away. These steering movements are inefficient and unnecessary. Once you learn the basic phantom move and phantom drag turns, you'll learn how to engage the sidecut of the ski, such that the ski will come around without active steering. We perform the phantom move by active inversion of the free foot (inside foot), and flexion of the inside leg.

Third, our focus begins at the feet, because that is the base of what we call the kinetic chain, and movements here have the most profound effect on the ski.

When I say inversion of the foot, I do mean the feet. The PSIA model of skiing talks much about using ankles knees and hips equally in skiing. This is probably true, however, most of the movements of the knees and hips are passive in our system. They come about as results of actions that happen at the feet or through secondary movements of the upper body. In PMTS, we don't drive our knees or use our hips, we tip our feet, and pull our feet under our hips. In your skiing, Ben, what is happening at the feet comes as a result of many large movements happening high up in the kinetic chain. For example, the rotation of your body into the turn has the effect of washing out the tail of the stance ski. This makes it hard to balance on the stance ski and forces you to become two footed. It also has the effect of reducing your edge angles, because A: taking pressure off of the stance ski reduces the amount that the ski will bend-- therefore widening the arc of the turn, and B: it becomes more difficult to tip your feet when you're not balanced on the edge of the ski. If the ski is sliding away from you, it is difficult to balance on it. Edge angle can be most affected by simple tipping movements of the feet, when you are too out of balance to tip your ankle, edge angles will be low.

Fourth, we allow the ski to turn us. It is a tool, and like all tools when used properly, will dramatically reduce the amount of work that needs to be done to get a certain task accomplished.

Learning the phantom move will help you to understand how the ski alone can effectively turn you. This is true not only for super sidecut slalom skis, but for any ski including straight skis. Our stance ski has one job, it turns us. We merely stand, balanced on it. We do not pressure it and we do not turn it, it turns us. By inverting our free foot or inside foot within the boot, and flexing our inside leg, we draw our body into the turn, thereby helping to pressure (passively) the stance foot and bend the stance ski.

In your own skiing Ben, you have a lot of activity high in the kinetic chain that is going to make it very difficult for you to simply add one or two PMTS movements to your skiing. I say that you need to rebuild your skiing from the ground up, because many of these movements will prevent you from balancing efficiently on your stance ski. For example, if you tried to learn the phantom move on a blue trail while free skiing, the rotation of your upper body and patrol plant as I call it, would prevent you from experiencing any different result on your ski. Your skis will still skid at a low edge angle. However if you break your skiing down to very basic turns on gentle green terrain focusing only on the feet and leaving your upper body almost entirely out of the equation, you may have success learning the phantom move. Learn to balance on the stance ski while tipping the free foot, then you can begin to learn more efficient secondary movements higher up the kinetic chain that will support and enhance your ability to balance and carve your stance ski.

Good luck, Joseph
Joseph
 

Postby *SCSA » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:56 am

*SCSA
 

Question for analysis

Postby SkierSynergy » Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:50 am

Guest (Benjamin, I think).

I watched your video, but before I post anything I want to ask a question.

I think you have posted several topics over on Epic about your own skiing. Some have been very specific issues (e.g. do I lean too much?). Some have been more general (smoothness of transitions).

In very general terms, if you could change one thing in your skiing for the better, what would it be?

I'm not necessarily looking for a picky, too-thought-out technical issue here about what you are doing wrong.

I'm thinking more about a real desire for your skiing in the form of a general positive effect (e.g., I wish I could get more grip on the steeps, more speed control, feel more balanced, have more smoothness from turn to turn, etc.). Also, tell me why you picked the change that you did.

Does this make sense?

If this is really about a desire for your own skiing, we have to start there. I have to have a motivation from you to focus what I am looking at and help me determine what movements are most important for you to work on.


Hey Piggyslayer. I'm still around. Just too busy with some personal stuff to post much lately. About the only post I've done in a while were in this thread over on Epic related to overly simplistic posts on alignment (i just couldn't hold back and say nothing).

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=24194
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