How is angle developed?

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How is angle developed?

Postby lukezhang » Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:43 pm

I think there is only so much tipping that one can do in ankles. Is the majority of angle comes from knee, femur & hip sockets when one counter upper body and drop hip to the ground?
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Re: How is angle developed?

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:05 pm

Angles are present and obvious at the hip... but they begin at and are driven by what is happening at the feet. This is why we teach foot tipping.

PMTS does not use or teach knee angulation as it puts the leg in a weak position.
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Re: How is angle developed?

Postby Erik » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:41 pm

Image that your foot was so rigidly locked into the boot that it could not tip at all. Could you still develop angulation of the ski to the snow? Yes, but you would be using larger muscles, further up in your body, to achieve the angles. This is how most skiers get any angulation of their skis, but they do not have the control of the shape of the ski turn that is developed in PMTS.

In PMTS, Tipping is considered to be the most important Essential movement. If you try to focus on getting greater angles on your skis while ignoring Tipping, that would be very bad if you are really trying to learn PMTS.

Of course, knee flexion and mobility of the pelvis and spine are necessary to develop those larger angles, but Tipping must not be ignored.

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Re: How is angle developed?

Postby lukezhang » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:55 pm

Yes, mentally it starts from feet. What is the typical range of motion for ankle inside ski boots? I guess you can still move you ankle even inside boots. Is there a optimal range of motion e.g. 5 degrees?
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Re: How is angle developed?

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:08 pm

lukezhang wrote:Yes, mentally it starts from feet. What is the typical range of motion for ankle inside ski boots? I guess you can still move you ankle even inside boots. Is there a optimal range of motion e.g. 5 degrees?


No. Physically it starts at the feet. Tipping of the feet enables the hip to begin to come inside the turn. At that point other movements begin to develop and support the tipping, like CB, flexing the inside leg... etc. This is not new information.

Have you actually worked through any PMTS exercises or did you come here to argue?
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Re: How is angle developed?

Postby Max_501 » Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:20 pm

lukezhang wrote:Yes, mentally it starts from feet.


Which of the books and/or DVDs do you have? We might be able to point you to more detailed information there.
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Re: How is angle developed?

Postby lukezhang » Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:55 pm

I have all of them. With stiff boots the best that you can do with your feet is to touch the side of boots. But that range of motion is pretty small. What physically to do with feet next?
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Re: How is angle developed?

Postby jbotti » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:39 pm

Start with a tipping board. When you start to experience that you have the ability to tip to a significant degree you will the realize that the vast majority of the movements that produce high edge angles come from tipping your feet. Until you are able to do this it will look and seem like it comes from other movements. It also takes most PMTS students a more than a season before they come close to the level of tipping that they need.

To advance, start with the tipping board and do it every day religiously. Next go to the essentials tipping video and work on those exercises.
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Re: How is angle developed?

Postby Ken » Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:15 pm

lukezhang wrote:I think there is only so much tipping that one can do in ankles. Is the majority of angle comes from knee, femur & hip sockets when one counter upper body and drop hip to the ground?
Yes, but...

...The effort in the ankle impels the body to follow. In some cases expanding the boot cuff to allow more tipping is beneficial. In any case, that is where the effort is at. The knee is allowed to drop toward the inside, not pushed to the inside. The hip is allowed to drop, not pushed to drop. The ankle inversion is intentional. The knee and hip are incidental. Big difference.
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Re: How is angle developed?

Postby lukezhang » Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:22 pm

Thank you everyone for clarifications.
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Re: How is angle developed?

Postby theorist » Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:35 pm

Luke, I think I understand your confusion. You're right, there's a limited range of ankle tipping available. So you're confused about what keeps you developing angles after the ankle of your inside foot is up against the lateral-side wall of the boot, which will happen as soon as you start to tip. The answer, if I may be so bold, is that it's the continued pressing of that ankle against the side of the boot (or, if you prefer, the continued pressing of the side edge into the snow) that keeps the kinetic chain activated, and thus causes the hip to progressively move down towards the snow. [As geoffda explained to me in another thread, "While the hip must move laterally inside the turn, the primary direction of movement is down."] I.e., the ankle doesn't have to move more,it just has to keep pressing in the same direction. The analogy I'd use is the gas pedal of a car. Once you press it to the floor it can't go any further. Yet the car will continue to accelerate.

It's because of the need to access the side of the boot that PMTS requires footbeds that have some flexibility, i.e., that don't lock the feet. For more information, see: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1660&p=15818&hilit=eversion+tipping+inversion#p15818
Last edited by theorist on Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How is angle developed?

Postby Max_501 » Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:40 pm

Two additional threads that might help -

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3709

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2860
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