Have you seen this? US Ski Team SL technique manifesto.

Have you seen this? US Ski Team SL technique manifesto.

Postby h.harb » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:12 pm

http://skiracing.com/feature/how-to-improve-your-slalom-skills/

On the Ski Racing page they are asking for comments about this. They sure didn't like my comments about the Skills Quest. Dare I lay it out again?
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team technique manifesto.

Postby emakarios » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:47 pm

saw it today on Facebook. Ron Kipp at work with Mike Rogan.
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team technique manifesto.

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:49 pm

Wow... just read that. It said absolutely nothing about how to actually improve your slalom. Way to go USSA.
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team technique manifesto.

Postby h.harb » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:31 pm

What is even more disheartening are the comments at the end of the page. It just demonstrates how scarce good skiing information really is, if people need this be educated.

A hodgepodge of terminology thrown at a triangle in random fashion. Two times were movements even mentioned, both times in compete isolation to any other reference. There is so little to apply from this information because it doesn't tell you anything about how to implement, when to implement, even if you could figure out where. No mention of the most important aspect of skiing releasing!!!! How to get from one turn to the next? It's not there. Guess you don't need it, to get pressure at the falline.
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team technique manifesto.

Postby CO_Steve » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:36 pm

It was in english right?
Hard to string that many words together without saying anything.

I'm going to commit to cleaning my skis more often this season.
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team technique manifesto.

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:19 pm

h.harb wrote:No mention of the most important aspect of skiing releasing!!!! How to get from one turn to the next? It's not there. Guess you don't need it, to get pressure at the falline.


C'mon Harald - you know they will just teach the kids to stand up to get out of the turn... so they get those hips forward!

I'd laugh about the sentence above, but it isn't funny because it destroys kids' skiing before they ever have a chance to be successful. Sad really.
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team technique manifesto.

Postby geoffda » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:00 pm

It is hard to read that article without feeling insulted. I am far from a world class skier, yet my understanding of how skiing works is so much higher than that of the USSA's national level coaches. I find it difficult to understand why the authors are, based on the comments, so proud of what they have written, let alone so convinced that they have invented something new. From the first moment I started reading Harald's writings, it was absolutely clear that his understanding of skiing was light-years ahead of anyone else's. Because of that, when I read articles like this from Rogan and Kipp, I end up being astounded by the arrogance that would permit them to publish their work in light of the fact that Harald's work exists. What is it that allows them to apparently be willing to dismiss what is so clearly brilliant? I honestly have trouble believing that a reasonable person would give any credence to these coaches once they had been exposed to PMTS and Harald's writings on the subject of technical skiing. At this point, I am simultaneously dismayed that USSA continues to provide a platform for coaches with such a weak understanding of how skiing works while being thankful that neither of my kids are going to participate in USSA skiing this year so my money won't be funding these coaches.
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team technique manifesto.

Postby h.harb » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:10 pm

Geoffda, thank you for your comments. I know it's hard to fathom and it is frustrating that an organization like USSA doesn't know how to get better. And that they have engaged PSIA as a technical source. PSIA has been without a vision and doesn't know how to create anything worthwhile or better than they have. Therefore denial of PMTS's existence is the only position relative to PMTS, that they can take.

Your brain was open when you saw my writings about skiing. Their brains are closed, defensive, yet arrogant and threatened. Look at how they have dealt with me and PMTS. First it was, PMTS doesn't work, then it was, we've always done it that way. Then from Vail, it was stated, "we already teach PMTS". After that, because their tactics were not working , they made the bold statement that they accepted any teaching methods and instructors could teach anything they wanted, which is a total crock. Can you imagine a PSIA instructor trying to teach a PMTS lesson. It would be entertaining to watch, and pitiful.

18 years have passed without PSIA coming to investigate or learn about how PMTS works. And while they have avoided, rebuked, denigrated, insulted PMTS, for 18 years, they have created nothing. Added nothing to improve the response to ski lessons, skier satisfaction or success. In the meantime our camps are full. Diana and I have absolutely no time in our schedules for one additional private lesson or time to film new materials this year. We are so booked up. We have to find a way to produce more materials, as we have a list of 10 more videos to do. That is another issue. But while on the topic, look at what materials, two of us, two people, by ourselves, have produced in that time frame. Not to mention that it's also valid. A huge organization like PSIA with all that money and resources, what have they produced, "Go with a Pro" on You Tube. Pathetic and pitiful!! Intellectually bankrupt!

When an organization behaves this way, they admit and demonstrate that they are intellectually bankrupt. One of the ways out, is to form alliances with a higher or perceived greater power, to gain prestige. PSIA's association with USSA and the US Ski Team give them temporary credibility. For anyone who knows, from a coaching, educational point and informational dissemination point, USSA is as intellectually bankrupt as PSIA. They have PSIA people running their coaches education, that's just one example.

The arrogance you mention, in the presentation, is a cover for their fear of exposure. Kipp has to defer to Sasha Rearick the US Ski Team coach, because he needs back up, desperately. If he presents his materials without some support from a ski team coach, to bolster it, people would be uninterested. Unfortunately in this case, he drags Sasha down with him.

I have some confidence in Tiger Shaw. I was invited to meet with him and his staff, face to face, this last September in Park City. I did. They admit they have work to do to become the best in the world. I've also been invited by the US Ski Team, to on snow training by Tiger Shaw, and Patrick Riml, Director of the US Ski Team. I don't know yet where this all goes, but I'm trying to look at it as a positive step.
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team SL technique manifesto.

Postby skijim13 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:09 am

The average skier who wants to improve turns to the ski school to get better, the next step you believe is to join the ski school and get lessons from people you believe are top people in the sport of skiing. I joined the ski school to improve my skiing and also teach others. However, what I found in the organization was that everyone tells you something different about what is right and what is wrong. During PSIA courses each examiner demos the same skill differently. The ski instructors treat level III and above like Gods who know all and the lower level people have no right to question their methods. What I found since studying PMTS was that I really knew nothing about skiing and was working hard to get better but the trainers had no ideal what you should do to improve. Our race team at our mountain is full of coaches that came from the PSIA and teach the students dead end skills. Since learning PMTS my wife and I can spot poor skiing on the mountain everywhere, our skiing has improved greatly. The PSIA teaching website is full of people who really know nothing about ski technique but try to add things that are wrong. The website has been recently taken over by the Rick (yourski coach). Rick seems to have some knowledge but he is missing the big picture, yesterday he was teaching technique that he says World Cup Skiers use which is to push off with your LTE to start turns. Many people on the site told him they knew exactly what he was talking about and how they use it also and see it in world class skiers. The discussion posted by the PSIA on racing is an embarrassment that people who never raced like my wife and I can see that whole talk is incoherent and lacking any real context with no roadmap on how to ski like a world cup skier. What I love about PMTS is that there is always a clear roadmap to learn new skill with external clues to validate your performance. You and Dianna should be leading our US ski team in skill development.
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team SL technique manifesto.

Postby Basil j » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:25 am

I agree with everything said and I will add that since I have been studying PMTS, I look at what "good skiing is" in a different light as well. PMTS is consistent and functional. You build from the feet up. It makes perfect sense. There are no "special moves" for certain conditions. The same movements apply to all conditions because they are built on essentials that work.
Being a parent of young racers I see that skiers and parents wanting to improve are hostage to their local ski school/programs, mostly because they don't have the time or desire to educate themselves to anything other than what the local instructor preaches. Even my own wife constantly challenges PMTS vs PSIA. "PSIA must work if that is what they teach. Don't confuse the kids".
It is frustrating to say the least. I am grateful there is a forum such as this where people can share ideas and perspectives on this great sport and have open minds to technique and improvement.
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team SL technique manifesto.

Postby h.harb » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:08 am

Skijim13, Thanks for the response, and your experience is exactly what I know happens in PSIA and at most ski schools, not only from my personal observations, but from many PSIA instructors that are willing to speak up and tell the truth. Unfortunately, the majority are under the PSIA spell, and they give homage to the arrogant Level 3 and examiner types who have built themselves into Emperors of skiing. As the old story goes, the Emperor has no clothes.

Again on the USSA topic, I don't think you would hear Tiger Shaw disagreeing with Geoffda's assessment. As I said, I have confidence in Tiger. He's a very smart guy, he sees through the issues and he listens to smart people. He's surrounded himself with many of his Dartmouth alumni skiers. I know him well, I knew him as a ski team member and he was also product manager at K2, when I was on the demo team, when I was sponsored by K2.

I also believe that there are some Austrian coaches on the Ski Team Staff that know a lot about World Cup skiing. They may not be able to transmit this information well, or even teach it well, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right ideas. The problem is that the structure in USSA, which I have publicly stated and written about, has a PSIA filter. This was in place before Tiger arrived.

Information from the US coaching staff goes through the PSIA filter, which is full of concepts. Concepts are like theories, they are made to sound right, and are hotly defended, but don't give you anything to work with. PSIA methods are mostly concepts, not movements, they lack teaching and implementation methods, application and performance evaluation. You see this, as Geoff noted, about the convoluted, arrogant presentation on the Ski Racing page. It's full of concepts, but nothings fits. In fact, PSIA accepts and heralds weak performance in it's instructors as acceptable, if they go to enough clinics and certifications.

When your teaching methodology and technique is based in movements and taught as movements that can be instantly applied, it's like presenting a review for every piece and part of skiing. You can't hide your methods when you present movements; your system is exposed out in front of everyone. PMTS does this, we do this, because we know what works for skiers. If PSIA did this, their system would collapse. That is precisely why they stick to concepts, they can be interpreted in so many ways and none of them are ever wrong, according to them. The first objective is to obfuscate, primarily it's the reality of not being able to tell the truth, because you don't know what it is. They don't tell you how to do what they teach, because it would expose their inadequacies. It's easier to present your concepts and expect the student to simple do it. How many times have I heard a frustrated PSIA instructor telling a student or instructor trainee, "Just do what I said, don't ask questions"?

In PSIA teaching, it's like the difference between telling the truth, or telling a lie. When you teach prescribed movements you simply remember them and do it. When you teach concepts, like steering, which is supposed to get your twisting legs to put you skis on edge, you try to teach it as if it worked, as naturally as you would tell the truth. Getting results with this is really hard, so you make things up to tell the student, like, you aren't unweighting enough, so it's always back on the student's abilities. Teaching concepts still requires more work than teaching movements, because when it doesn't work, you need to figure out a believable alternative to use. And as a strategy, you simply need to focus the subject's attention on something else and let them concoct how they are doing using their own imagination. This becomes very frustrating for students.


This is also the easy way out for a system and the instructor. Example. There is a concept of stance and balance in PSIA and USSA. The concept is right, you have to have a good stance and you have to stay in balance. Here is an example of what happens in this situation. The skier is training with the idea that he has to have a good stance and needs to stay in balance. In practice runs he loses his balance. Coach says, You are out of balance again, get into your athletic stance, you know what that looks like, I've showed you. Stay in balance, says the coach. The Athlete goes out again, runs the course, same result. The coach says, You just can't stay in balance. This is a crude example, but what is amazing is that most of coaching works like this. It happens at the national level, I've heard it personally standing on the hill.

Another example, the racers are free skiing and they stop by the coach to get feedback. Coach says, get your hips forward, that's what you are working on right? And sends the kid off for another run. That's it, that is all there is to coaching in many programs and by many coaches.

An athlete knows they are out of balance, he doesn't need a coach to confirm this. He needs the coach to tell him "how" and what to do to keep balanced. This is how the system works. The coach can then say afterward, See that athlete just doesn't have good enough balance to be a top level ski racer. This is how they absolve themselves of the responsibility or failure as a coach. I see this happening all the time.

I'm off on a tangent again, back to the USSA structure.

I think from knowing and talking with Tiger that he understands that this is an area of concern and that there is a disconnect between what the coaches of the US Team are doing and saying and how this is interpreted and presented to the club race programs and coaches. As I said earlier, I know this problem was not of Tiger's doing, he is evaluating everything, and I think I know the way he works, he's methodical and he's patient, but when it comes to act, he'll do it. I think in the next year or two, at the most, you will see some big changes.
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team SL technique manifesto.

Postby skijim13 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:38 am

Well said Harald, its why once you study PMTS you eyes are open to the flaws in the PSIA system and you will never go back to their system, they are not helping the ski industry grow the sport.
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team SL technique manifesto.

Postby h.harb » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:38 am

My response to the comments that coaches are putting up on the ski racing page about the USSA pyramid of Slalom technique: feel free to participate, they need to hear reality from end users as well.
I am really hesitant to add to this barrage of accolades for this pyramid concept of coaching presented by the USSA department for education. I see so many responses that hype such with resounding praise. Frankly, this amazes me, that this product resonates so strongly? There is nothing new or innovative here, it's not tied together with movement information or how one learns, how one coaches. It's an outline that has been around for decades in different forms. As it stands, there are glaring crucial skiing pieces missing. Am I to conclude from these response posts, that this is ground breaking skiing information for many coaches. I'm sorry, but if this is new to you, or stimulating, then indeed there maybe a huge void in coaches education nation wide.

Geoffda, great post on the comments page. You already have 3 likes.
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team SL technique manifesto.

Postby dbwallace » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:38 pm

This video ranks right up there next to the USSA coaching videos.If you've seen the USSA GS (Technique and Tactics) or SL (Tactics and Carving) videos you'll note that there is plenty of "what to do" and very little (I'm being gracious) of "how to do". Hardly a surprise.
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Re: Have you seen this? US Ski Team SL technique manifesto.

Postby Matt » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:47 am

They guy has a PhD in motion control. I hope he puts it to better use in the future.
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