Leg flexing drill

[piggyslayer]

Leg flexing drill.

Maybe we need a non-political discussion. Here is a starter:
This is more than a drill for me, I like to ski like that.

In this drill, skier starts each turn at the end of the previous turn. Instead of lightening and tipping the downhill foot, the turn is initiated by aggressively LTE tipping the uphill foot. This has an effect of sharpening the turn and moving the skis under you (and eventually maybe even above you). It is a jerky movement unless you learn how to flex. You sort of have no other option but to flex. The movement becomes more fluid if you flex, and even more fluid if you flex early (anticipating it as opposed to reacting to it).

To make the drill even more effective, we can focus on short radius turns. In this way there is no ?think-time? and the flexing will be a result of body adopting to deal with the force resulting from aggressive tipping, and will become automatic.
I also tend to keep my torso facing downhill at the end of the turn to amplify the jerky element resulting from aggressive tipping.

I have been working on flexing for a very long time. In fact, flexing was something Harald and Diana had me working on at the very first camp I have attended (some 5 years ago). For some reason, flexing never became automatic for me. Flexing was always a conscious switch for me: I flex only if I switch the ?flexing? ON and pay constant attention. It was always hard for me to work on other things if I was in ?flexing? mode.
This drill seems to be helping.
In fact, while doing it, my body naturally learns to anticipate the ?jerk? and I start flexing as soon as the skis leave the fall line. This tells me that I flex no longer as result (reaction to) the tipping movement but I flex automatically for the sake of flexing!

This idea, of working on flexing this way, is quite new to me and I will be polishing it for next couple of trips.
Comments appreciated.

Robert

[ydnar]

Robert,

What you are describing here is one of the highest level moves in skiing. What you are doing is keeping the feet engaged in the arc of the previous turn with he agressive tipping of the uphill foot (even momentarialy tightening that arc) while at the same time releasing the CoM to move forward along a balistic path across the path of the skis by flexing the legs. This results in a very quick seperation of the body and the feet in the new turn which produces a strong edge very early in the new turn. I really love the feel of this move,

The jerk that you experenced before you worked out the timing of the flex came from the power generated by the ski as you brought it up to a higher edge angle at the end of the turn. If you don't flex then the legs transmit this power to the body and you feel like something is kicking your body up the hill. When the flex timing is just right its your feet that get kicked up the hill while your body is allowed to move forward.

When you get comfortable with the move you are working on there is something else you can try that may enhance your turns even further. As you agressively tip the uphill ski also feel as though you are trying to shear off the toe piece of your binding with the toe of your boot by feeling like you are sliding the foot forward. For me this move seems to enhance the earlly engagement of the new outside ski. It also establishes a relationship of minimal ski lead between the feet so that you don't have to actually pull the inside foot back just maintain a functional tension in the foot and leg to keep the inside foot from advancing.

Have fun playing with your newest step forward in your skiing,

yd

[jbotti]

I may be a little thick and I would like to understand this move. Just to slow it down a bit. In a left turn, at the end of the turn you focus on riding the LTE of the left foot, and then the initiation of the the new turn occurs solely from flexing the right leg and CM shift over it? Do I understand this correctly? I assume that this occurs quite quickly and the cm shift automatically moves the left foot from LTE to flat to engaged on the BTE? Am I grasping this correctly?
BTW, it's nice not to be arguing about steering and rotary movements!!

[piggyslayer]

First, ydnar, thanks for kind words. I have actually been doing similar turns for some time. I started doing similar turns last year and worked on them over the summer.
I have worked on these turns after reading last year Harald post.
However, my approach was to achieve the same result (skis moving under my body and my body going over the skis) by simply flexing the legs. I never experimented with aggressive tipping of the uphill leg until this season, and I never viewed this as a drill which forces flexing until recently.
When I think about it, my previous approach was more like ?steering? (the word typically is used to describe something different in skiing - I hope I am not starting any war by saying that) and the new approach is initiated by the foot so I like it.
The feelings you describe (being kicked up) is exactly what I sense if I do not prepare the leg flex beforehand.

I would be very interested if you elaborate more about sliding the foot forward. My small concerns are of not being rotated in the beginning of the next turn (early counter-action). Please elaborate.

Jbotti, I thought about your question and I feel like this may be one of these complex egg-chicken things. What I sense is the skis moving under me.
I think that the release happens for the following reasons:
1. Skis move under my body across the hill or up the hill (hard to sense which direction actually happens).
2. My body moves over the skis because of the momentum.
3. My body moves over the skis as a result of flexion.

Please note that to move the body into next turn you do not have to flex your legs unevenly (downhill more than uphill). A bit complex physics still applies if both legs are flexed but still release results from such flexing. Each time a CM moves down with leg flexion in a counter balanced position the equilibrium is disrupted and a resultant force pushes the CM downhill.
I believe I flex both legs about evenly. I will try next time I am on snow. The reason I do it is this:
a) If I flexed the downhill leg only, I am afraid I will not be absorbing the impact of being ?kicked up?.
b) LTE tipping the uphill leg results in some momentary increase of separation between the boots (even if uphill leg is very light on snow) until the kinetic chain catches up. If I relaxed the downhill leg more I would probably make the separation even worse.
c) I think of turning uphill and not releasing the stance leg. This is the deal you want to prolong the old turn until the unavoidable. I actually want to try these with Von Grunigen turns next time I get a chance.

You are right it is very quick. In fact, I tried these on a wide carving run with medium size turns and on a steeper pushed snow run with short turns. The forces involved in short turn seem to be more manageable, with medium turns forces get bigger-I did feel my hip for couple of days after doing it.

Robert

[jbotti]

Piggy Slayer,
Thanks for the elaboration. It sounds very cool. I don't think I'm there yet, but I will play with it some this weekend. I have had some experience focusing on what Diana calls the Piggy move where one is simultaneously on both LT edges. This seems to be a faster version where the tipping of the new free ski occurs naturally form the CM transfer, and the old free foot rolls right through from LTE to BTE all enabled by agressive use of flexing. Again, I think it may be beyond me, but I can see the efficiency in the move. Thanks.

[Biowolf]

Robert:
What do you refer to as van Grueningen turns. (I know who he is and how he skis but I am interested in what you see)

[piggyslayer]

Biowolf

Harald uses this term to describe more exaggerated version of weighted release.

In Von Grunigen move (is it turn or move, I never remember) 100% your weight is on the downhill ski at the end of the turn and stays on the same leg going into new turn. The uphill leg (to become the outside leg) has no weight on it and often ends up in the air.

There was a thread on this forum which posted a video link showing Michael Von Grunigen racing GS:
?Skiing clips: von Grunigen? http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/vie ... n+grunigen
You can watch for the release in these wonderful turns.

Robert

[Biowolf]

Robert
I have watched this video countless times. It is one of my favourites. I am no expert on PMST. I am convinced that MvG initiates his turn by pushing off his uphill ski, sometimes to the extent that both skis come off the ground. This would also correspond to a degree to your drill of edging the LTE at the end of the turn. I am very interested in that drill. It is totally new to me and I am not clear on it. I would like to learn more about it. I want to stress that I dont hold any political biases.

[SkierSynergy]

There are several purposes of using a weighted release.

One, it develops another type of one footed balance that is necessary for well rounded parallel skiing. You can't get off the big toe until you can balance on the little toe.

Second, it depends on, and helps develop a commitment to the new turn. By "commitment," I mean allowing the CM to travel across the skis into the new turn before a change of direction in the skis happens.

Third, it effectively blocks any possibility of wedging because the transfer of weight is delayed until the fall line is reached.

Lots of people will use more general, menuever level concepts when describing how to do the weighted release (e.g. commit to the turn, get the CM into the turn, etc.). I think it's important to bring the description back to more specific, PMTS movement level instructions that begin low in the kinetic chain.

The movements that generally, create a release and engagement when on one foot during the weighted release are the same that do so when doing a transfer/release/engage pattern (turns done on the outside foot).

The movements of the release are flexing the old stance leg and flattening the skis to the snow. Fex and flatten.

The main movement for engagement is an active tipping of the inside foot/ankle to the little toe edge.

The difference in the weighted release is the sequencing of the transfer of weight from one foot to the other.

Just to emphasize, neither the release, the enganement, nor the transfer or weight is done by pushing off the old inside foot. In fact, starting completely on one foot with a 2-3 count traverse is good for blocking any tendency to do this.

The sequence is something like the following.

At the end of the turn, the force of the turn passively transfers much of the skiers weight onto the stance ski. This can be enhanced by further flexing of the free leg. It is the actions of flexing one leg or extending the other that transfers weight from one foot to the other. Some clarification may be needed here. If I flex one leg the weight transfers to the other. If I extend one leg weight is transfered to the leg that is extending.

At the end of the turn, when the free foot is completely light. Raise the free foot to the boot top. This completely transfers the weight to the old stance leg (new inside leg). Flex the stance leg and flatten the stance ski to the slope. Consistent, with concentating on free foot tipping, I have found that flattening/tipping the foot in the air to the slope works to flatten/tip the foot on the snow. This action will release the old turn and begin the new turn. I can't overemphasize the usefulness of concentrating on inverting/everting the foot that is in the air to make the correct movements happen in the foot on the snow.

At the release, don't try to twist the ski or your body. This is a big mistake that many people make. They attempt to "juice" the change of direction by turning/twisting the body into the turn.

Instead, concentrate on just balancing. Continue to flex and tip the ski on the ground to it's LTE. Be patient and concentrate on balancing on the LTE. As you begin to face the fall line.

Leave the leg that is in the air the same length. However, progressively flex the leg on the ground until the outside foot touches the snow at the fall line. Continuing to flex the inside leg through the bottom half of the turn will slowly transfer weight completely to the outside leg. Now, the process can begin again.

*************************

Some comments on learning the turn. It is most difficult to correctly release from a dirrect traverse. So work your way into the tun by using a fan -- reverse fan progression.

Start by doing a few shallow banana turns on the LTE. Start from a steeper and steeper position to the falline until you can do a one footed LTE turn from directly down the fall line.

Now use a reverse fan progression to ease your way into a more and more difficult release on one foot. If you don't know what a fan -- reverse fan is, check out the carver excersise page on my website:

http://web.pdx.edu/~petersj/HoodCamp/CarverExercises/CarverExerciseIndex.htm#LearningProgression

I hope this helps someone. The main point is to use the same primary movements that are always used. Remember, that it is these movements that cause the CM movement not the other way around. To emphasize this I think it's good to do some turns with a definite pause on one leg (maybe a count of 3) before releasing. This interrupts/pauses the CM and makes you start everything fresh in the feet. It pays off by keeping the movements of your feet ahead of the movement of your body when you do turns allowing the CM to flow from one turn to the next.

[piggyslayer]

Biowolf

You can also find lots of video footage for Von Grunigen/weighted release
on the DVD/tape accompaning the Anyone Can be an Expert Skier II book.
The book convers lots of details on weighted release as well.

Enjoy, these turns are fun!

Robert

[jlskier]

piggyslayer, thanks a ton for posting this!

I gave this a try tonight, holding the turn with an aggressive LTE tipping of the uphill ski and flexing (really it was more of a retraction of both legs) down and across the skis into the new turn. I have focused on the flexing movement before (mainly through a retraction of the old outside ski), but combining it with the continued aggressive LTE tipping of the uphill ski really made it click like it had not before.

The first few times I felt the "jerk" as my feet kicked up hill under me and I got way too much forward lean at the waist. When I took ydnar's comments into account, the jerk dissapear and was replaced with a feeling I had only occasionaly felt on really good turns. My skis felt solidly connected to the snow throughout the whole edge change and new turn initiation. This was a major breakthrough as it allowed me to really experience the extension into the turn and flex to finish. It was also leaving some deep carves at the top of the turn I usually don't see until the middle and end.

Great tip!

[Biowolf]

Robert:
What I was trying to say was that I am interested in your drill where you roll onto the LTE at the end of your turn and get sort of a rebound . I was hoping to learn more about that. I was also interested in Ydnar's reply to your post. How we got from there to the weighted release I dont know.

[piggyslayer]

Biowolf wrote:

Robert:
What I was trying to say was that I am interested in your drill where you roll onto the LTE at the end of your turn and get sort of a rebound . I was hoping to learn more about that. I was also interested in Ydnar's reply to your post. How we got from there to the weighted release I dont know.

Funny when it happens like that.

Rebound is a loaded word. I do not view it as a rebound implying direction change, also flexing makes it disappear.

I used the term V.G. turn simply to say that I want to try the following experiment next (just to see what happens if I do):
I will keep 100% of weight on the downhill leg when I tip the uphill leg aggressively and try to continue with weight on the downhill leg far into the next turn.

The experiments as I done them so far had classic way of weighting the skis (load the stance leg in the upper part of the turn, keep the free foot light throughout the turn).
It seems to me that the ?reverse? tipping and resulting flexing is the only thing that differs this drill from regular turns from the point of view of skier movements.


jlskier:
You are making my day!

My intention with this post was to point interesting phenomena of my body being ?forced? to sink down when I do the uphill LTE tipping and not much more.

Before I tried that drill I used to ski with more gentle uphill LTE tipping combined with explicitly flexing my legs and I never seen this phenomena (phenomena of forced flex/retraction and reward for anticipated flex). This probably still is more how I often ski when not experimenting. The effect on the turn itself is similar. My wife has commented that when I ski my skis tend to finish in a direction perpendicular to where my body keeps on going. This confirms what I feel.

One more comment. This aggressive tipping may be an advanced move, but I am not happy with it on ice. I guess the movement is too abrupt for ice. On ice I need to slow it down and then my legs are no longer forced to retract. So the drill is no longer a drill.
Thus, I question if this is a good way to ski at all. I think I will use it as drill to improve my flexing and be more gentle with it when I ski ski.

Ydnar, where R U? Probably Utah got another dump. This is so unfair!

Robert

[Jim]

Robert - Did you ever try this on Carvers? Or is the black ice too hard for this move?

[piggyslayer]

I never tired aggressive uphill LTE tipping on Carvers, I started playing with that move on my last day of Utah ski vacation and since then have not been on Carvers. I will try when NJ snow melts, I did use the more gentle version of ?prolonging the turn? with less aggressive tipping and flexing over the summer and that works well.

Rusty, Ydnar, Ott, I think using BB classification from Epic that is a negative move, right?
This is not a loaded question; I do not want to argue any point, simply my curiosity.

I need to go back to work and then I am off to dance with the mountain.

Robert