Help still needed re custom liners, also - heel lift Q

[sunrise]

Hi, I've also posted this on the gear forum as well and will email Harold about it, but I know he's super busy right now and I may not get a response in time, so just in case anyone else up here can help.

Once again I'll give my brief info:
female 121lbs, 163cm
just bought new Dyna Legend 4800s @ 158cm
Head FR9.5 boots from last season (without rear spoilers due to lower, large calves), with Conformable custom liners
Skiing some blacks, starting to get the hang of powder/off piste, have yet to conquer moguls and have been working on my own with HH's books/vids
I'm not in an area where good alignment is possible. I'm on my own here. Will try some duct tape for canting experiments this season.


1. Many thanks to the responses for my question on a previous thread, though I'm still trying to figure out which model Conformable custom foam liners to get. I've ordered some so I have a week to make my final decisions on this. I'm thinking that the regular one would be okay, but if you PMTS folk recommend the comp model for my skill/size/weight/boots I would definitely follow your advice.


2. Last season (I'd forgotten this) after my then-new Head boots had worn in with a bit of movement, as well as space above my foot due to my flatter women's upper foot compared to man (in male boots) and also a little space in my narrower heels, and a tiny bit of movement side to side, a techie I went to near the ski slopes added some heel lifters in the boots. Trying to recall why he did this I'm pretty sure it was to help take away the extra space and make my feet and heels snugger, instead of adding bits and pieces to the boot liner, as oppposed to doing it to raise my heels for stance purposes.

The guy in the shop said that if the heel lifters were in there to help my stance then I should keep them cos my stance probably wouldn't change much, though of course the new skis would feel different. I told him that they would be mounted further forward so my balance on the ski would likely be different. He still didn't think that would make any difference to whether or not I needed heel lifters. I certainly don't recall feeling uncomfortable using them. I probably skied better, though of course my boots as a result fit better so that could have been what made the difference. But he said that if the lifters were in my boots to help with space/movement issues then I wouldn't need them because the foam would fill out the spaces.

I have no idea if he's correct about the heel lifters (if used for the sake of raising stance), but at any rate I just wanted to get a verification on my suspicion that you folk over here would probably tell me to get rid of the heel lifters since I remember reading somewhere here that heel lifters weren't recommended. Would I be correct in thinking this?

I also suspect that if I did have any 'sweet spot' stance balance issues last season on the Salomon Crossmax 8Ws I was using last season, then this should be way improved with the further forward-mounted 4800s which I had mounted, according to Gary's (from the gear forum) instructions, 2mm forward.

A crucial issue here is that I need to decide whether or not to keep the heel lifters BEFORE we fit the foam liners (in a week's time) because taking them out (or adding them) later will affect the fit of the liners, so I'll be grateful for a response. If you recommend I toss them out then I will. I'm assuming that the Head boots shouldn't need them.

Thanks. All advice and feedback appreciated.

Julianne

[midwif]

Jeannie Thorsen is a strong proponent of heel lifts for women almost universally, since our center of gravity is lower than a man's and we need to be angled further forward. I don't know if mounting bindings further forward changes that dynamic. Women have to be careful not to blindly accept that what is right for men is also right for us. I would be interested in hearing what Diana and Harald have to say about this.

I had heel lifts put in to stop the swishing around of my ankle. It helped a lot. I'm planning on buying the boot you have now, the Head FR. Am hoping it fits my narrow foot and skinny legs.

[sunrise]

Hi midwif,

Thanks for your reply, great to hear a woman's input. I've read some things, and though I don't know Jeannie Thorsen (not following US skiing things), if she happens to think along PMTS lines then her support for the lifts is good to hear.

Ooops, I should have researched further before writing in my last post that people here seem to be against heel lifts. I just spent a decent block of time searching up here and found that that's not necessarily so. Maybe it was Peter (from realskiers) who I had heard that from.
Well, the heel lifts didn't seem to do me wrong, (from my limited experience), and did seem to help, but it was so long ago now that I can't totally remember exactly if they also helped my centre of balance. I don't recall it being worse. From what I've now since read up here and from what your saying perhaps they aren't necessarily an evil thing to be tossed out, they might actually have been beneficial for me.

I'm not so big but am defintely in the pear-shaped category - small up top with comparitively larger lower half - ie thighs/calves/butt so my centre of gravity is definitely different to the average comparatively 'top heavy person, including comparatively 'top heavy' women with skinny legs. Couple that with slightly fallen arches and perhaps I am after all a good candidate for the lifters. They certainly didn't put me off balance last year.

Now, from what I'm reading here I'm realising it might be harder for someone who hasn't seen me in my boots and on my skis to give an opinion about whether or not I should use them. Perhaps the Salomon skis were mounted further back than my ideal sweet spot and it did make a difference to my centre of balance. I really have no idea how their mounting centre compares with the new Dyna 4800s (and they way I've had them mounted) or if it's more just my own personal centre of balance/gravity, skis or what. I'll have to do the squat tests (but with no weights) mentioned in these forums.

As for the FR boots - I think how they fit will also depend on your shoe size. I'm often not quite the exact size, depending on the shoe (or boot!) I can be kinda in between half sizes, though I'm usually officially a 25.5. Also, you say you have skinny legs so I'm imagining that you'd be able to keep the rear spoiler on your boots which I suspect would make some kind of differerence also. I had no choice but to take them off with my big calves, which may or may not make boot performance suffer a little, but perhaps my large calves and lack of rear spoiler in my boots has pushed my centre of gravity back a little with the heel lifts helping counter that since the rear spoiler, apart from feeling too tight and uncomfortable on me, tended to push my legs more (comparatively speaking) forward than without it. Maybe it's a necessary component in the boot that I'm not able to use and the heel lifts provide that little more (comparitively) forward stance that the spoiler would normally do.

The FR boot itself feels really nice and centrally-balanced, so easy to stand upright in it, compared to what I had before. It felt very natural compared to some other brands I had tried on. I would have actually bought some Salomons, which also felt good and they seemed to be a better fit for my narrower foot (well, at least the Japanese model did). The foot itelf felt great in the shop but the rear spoiler was attached the boot so I couldn't take it off, and buckled even loosely it was just too tight with my large (lower) calves and pushed my centre of balance too far forward.

Hmmm, this an interesting discussion. Yes, I'll be interested in input from some PMTS bootfitters.

Julianne
[/i]

[piggyslayer]

then this should be way improved with the further forward-mounted 4800s which I had mounted, according to Gary's (from the gear forum) instructions, 2mm forward.

Did you mean 2cm? right?

Until you get some expert advice checkout quite long John?s thread
"fore/aft Balance - Ramp Angle - Delta angle - Heel Lifts etc"
http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=332

Ooops, I should have researched further before writing in my last post that people here seem to be against heel lifts.

My take on this: high ramp angles (and heel lifts) make boots more rotary, this is sort of a way of life, but this does not mean people here are necessarily against them in all alignment situations. Rotary boots are bad choice for most skiers, but your fore-aft balance needs are important as well.

Harald is at the camp during this week, but there other experts who may give you some advice.

Good luck.

Robert

[sunrise]

Thanks for the input, Robert. I will check that thread, I think that was one of the ones I didn't have time to read late last night (my time).

Yes, that was 2mm, not cms. That's what Gary from the gear forum wrote. Uh oh, did he make a typo? But I've quoted it back to him and he hasn't mentioned anything.

He wrote: "make sure the bindings are mounted more forward, say at least 2mm for you. This is fairly common as a difference between men and woman...anatomy and all that. "

Still, according to articles on realskiers French brands tend to be mounted further forward. Knowing nothing about whether mms or cm are neeeded to make a difference I just followed the advice. Hmmm, should I be checking with him to make sure?

Anyway thanks for your input. You're obviously a lot further down this particular road than I am. At least I know I'm in a decent (Head) boot but perhaps not using a rear spoiler affects things too.

Julianne

[Ken]

Heel lifts change the geometry of your stance. Picture the heel lift causing your lower leg to be tilted more forward. To maintain balance you push your butt back and bend at the waist. Not good.

There are a few folks that benefit from heel lifts, but I think too many are fitted.

The foot lifting inside the boot is better cured with tongue shims...1/8" pads glued to the inside of the tongue. It holds the foot down without changing the stance geometry. Scroll down this link to tongue shims: http://www.tognar.com/boot_heater_warme ... board.html


Ken

[Joseph]

Sunrise, for most people a heel lift is not necessary. We (Harb skier alignment center) use them for people with limited dorsiflexion--dorsiflexion is a person's ability to close the ankle joint. A heel lift helps them to take up some of the natural forward lean that is built into every ski boot without having to close their ankle and take up some of that limited range of motion. If you have a boot fit issue and want to take up space, use a fit shim. It is basically a piece of flat cardboard that runs the length of the boot under the footbed, if you can't get them, use cardboard. Most people have more than enough dorsiflexion for skiing, so we use heel lifts seldomly.

[BigE]

Sunrise, read this:

http://www.skimag.com/skimag/feature/ar ... 66,00.html

There is a link to jeannie thoren's home page at the bottom of the article. The article is fairly descriptive of the use of a heel lift. Jeannie home page says even more....

[piggyslayer]

Julianne,
Do not panic about the 2mm vs 2cm.
You spoke with an expert and I am not one.

There was a relevant thread last year ?Fore/aft binding placement? http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/vie ... ight=mount
discussing placement of the binding and the fact that some manufacturers like Atomic or Head maybe placing the ski center spot to much back and may benefit from a bit of forward mount.
I remember Harald once told me about a study which has shown that people did not see much difference when binding was moved by 1cm or less.
My integrated Atomic binding allows me to move it to 4 positions, the most aggressive one is about 2cm in front of "neutral" and settings are 6-7mm apart. Similar range of adjustments is, I think, possible on Tyrolia Railflex (which I do not have so cannot be sure).
I was under impression that 2mm will not make any difference.
I think 2cm is aggressive and may be too much for you and the adjustment may very much depend (as you have observed) on ski model and brand.
Guys, any comments?

Joseph: I would love to read your comments on
Jeannie Thoren theory http://www.jeanniethoren.com/
see also link from BigE post.

Robert

[Guest]

Hi midwif,

Thanks for your reply, great to hear a woman's input. I've read some things, and though I don't know Jeannie Thorsen (not following US skiing things), if she happens to think along PMTS lines then her support for the lifts is good to hear.

Ooops, I should have researched further before writing in my last post that people here seem to be against heel lifts. I just spent a decent block of time searching up here and found that that's not necessarily so. Maybe it was Peter (from realskiers) who I had heard that from.

better check with harald before you follow the advice of someone not associated with PMTS and really ruin your skiing.

[*SCSA]

Good morning Sunrise!

If you're really serious about making turns, I'd try to get a hold of Harald before making any decisions. You can call him, email, whatever is easiest for you.

You could end up getting lifters installed all on bad advice. Because, the ski industry is full of bad advice. Matter of fact, it's real easy to get bad advice. Getting good advice on the other hand, is much harder to find. Very hard to find.

You're at the right place here. But like I say, I'd think real carefully -- and talk to Harald -- before making any kind of a decision. Some people want to advertise a magic wand -- "Get these heal lifters and your problems will be over...". But the facts are, nothing makes up for poor technique. So while you really could benefit from some alignment adjustments, I'm willing to bet where you need the most work, is your technique.

[sunrise]

Thanks everyone for chiming in with your input, advice and feedback. I've since heard from trusted sources that I can get the liners made BEFORE having to make decisions about things like heel lifts. So I'll be taking them out before getting the liners done. Phew! The urgency is off. There will be time to figure out if heel lifts are at all necessary later on. I had felt in a real hurry because the guy in the shop had told me that it would make a big difference to the fit of the liners if I added heel lifts later (or took them out later). Okay, so now I know this isn't going to be crucial so I can relax with all that.
I took a look at that article about Jeannie, thanks for the link Big E. It's an interesting read, and I'm sure she's helping a lot of women, however when going to her website and reading further and seeing what equipment she's selling I notice that she has a number of rotary boot models there. It makes sense to me that women may be naturally less forward balanced than men, however at this point I'm more inclined to want to follow the advice of PMTS folk if it differs (as I suspect it will in at least some cases).
Joseph, thanks for your advice too. This also makes sense to me. I'm still thinking about how I don't have rear spoilers on my boots and how in my case heel lifts actually might help counter the loss of forward stance that the spoilers were meant to give. However I'm also totally open to the large possibility that they might be totally unnecessary. In reading Jeannie's site and thinking back I'm more than sure that the techie put the lifters in my boots last season to help my feet fit in the boots better rather than change my ski stance. Anyway it's sure opened up an interesting topic.
One thing's for sure, I feel confident that I'm in the right hands for sound advice over on this forum.
Thanks again everyone!
Robert - thanks for explaining more about forward mounting on bindings.
Guest and SCSA - thanks too. Point taken again and again from too many people here. The lifters will not go in when I make the liners.
I will be interested to hear Harold's comments on the subject.

cheers
Julianne

[BigE]

I took a look at that article about Jeannie, thanks for the link Big E. It's an interesting read, and I'm sure she's helping a lot of women, however when going to her website and reading further and seeing what equipment she's selling I notice that she has a number of rotary boot models there. It makes sense to me that women may be naturally less forward balanced than men, however at this point I'm more inclined to want to follow the advice of PMTS folk if it differs (as I suspect it will in at least some cases).

From Jeannie's website:

* One of 100 Most Influential Skiers of the Century (Ski)

* Top 25 Most Influential People in Skiing in the last 50 years (Skiing)

* Member of the 1st Annual Skiing for Women Hall of Fame

* Top 100 Ski Instructors in America for 2000, 2001, and 2002

But because Jeannie sells a "rotary" boot her theories are not relevant??? So irrelevant in fact, that you'd rather have the hearsay of skiers that are totally untrained in bootfitting?

Sheesh.

[Guest]

but it isn't the maestro

[SkierSynergy]

Actually, I have talked with Sunrise over the phone about her questions.

I outlined some of the issues that are related to having a lift that should be considered independently of sex/gender.

My position is that though there are some general differences in the mean scores of men and women in some anatomical measurements, there is also a great deal of within group variance and overlap in the ranges for those two groups.

The bottom line is that individuals should be measured and assessed individually.

Anyone who advocates a heal lift just because you are a woman should be avoided.

This says nothing about Jeannie's theory. Nor does it say anything about her services. She most probably does individually assess the women she sees.

The last time I talked with her, Sunrise simply said she wants to get a good individualized assessment before she decides what to try. Nothing wrong with that. I also emphasized that a heel lift is not permanent. She can try something and then remove it if she doesn't feel it's working.

Though this does open up some interesting questions:

1. Are the fore/aft requirements different in rotary versus lateral boots

2. Are the fore and aft requirements different for using PMTS techniques versus TTS techniques (does including steering and rotary result in a different "optimal" fore/aft set up)?

3. Do experienced alignment people from the two traditions recommend a different fore/aft set up or systematically offer different remedies and /or reasons?

I don't know. I am not asking which system is best here. Just whether there are differences in what is recommended and why? Any comments?