can't buy an edge

[polecat]

Last couple trips out I've come up against a lot of hardpack and ice and I can't seem to hold and edge worth *#@!

I'm sure video would show some glaring mistakes I'm making but that isn't possible in the foreseeable future.

In the meantime, any suggestions for particular drills or something I can work on that might help?


pc

[NoCleverName]

I've had some luck this year...finally. A big two-footed pullback during the transition followed by lot's 'o counter-act (w/some hip raise). In essence, it seems to get one's CM right over the tipped edge thus increasing the direct downward force that creates the hold. I think I gained this capability via using a massive "pig ride" (o-frame) approach that left both skis largely on the snow moving in the direction they were pointed...thus no sideways slipping that disturbed the edge hold in the first place.

Now, granted, while in this position many times I found myself skittering across the ice ... but at least it was a in-balance skitter with the skis staying under me.

[dan.boisvert]

A friend with a ceramic disc edger recently tuned my Supershape Magnums, and it was impressive how much grip they came back with. I'd been pretty shy with filing, not wanting to remove too much edge material, but clearly I need to do more of it. It's amazing how much difference a really good tune can make.


(edit to fix youtube embedding)

[Max_501]

I know a race coach that tunes his skis at the beginning of the season and never touches them again. He skis ice like its super hero groomed snow. Technique or tune? Hmm... That said, I like razor sharp edges for ice.

For technique suggestions:

http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3140

[polecat]

Here's something you'll rarely hear around the ski lodge: I'm very confident the problem is me, not the skis. I know I suck.

On the plus side, I may not be as bad a tech as I thought. On the chance I might have screwed up the edges with my filing, I took them into a good shop and had them do the works.

I can can see how much less trouble others around me are having. I'm sure it's me.

I've been trying to make big changes in my skiing lately, mostly in releasing and pullback. I'm guessing I've screwed up tipping, CB, CA or probrbly all three.



pc

[CO_Steve]

PC, I did Super Blue last Jan. and we had pretty firm conditions. On the first morning Jay asked the group what each of us were looking to improve and to a man we all said grip. We then proceeded to do an interesting progression that really was eye opening to me. Hope I get all the details right:

First run (we're talking skiing maybe 2-300 yards) just make your normal turns but be aware of the amount of tension in the ankle muscles of your stance ski. Don't try to change anything just think about when they are tense and by how much.
Second run. Ski with no tension in your stance ski ankle muscles. Turns will be sloppy and drifted, that's ok.
Third run. You can now tension your ankle but only in the last 25% of the arc. Until you're half way from the fall line to the end the ankle stays loose. When it's time to tension you go 100%.
Fourth run. Tension can now start at the fall line, 100% when applied.

A couple things came out of this. You probably never used 100% tension before, I know I didn't. To do this you've got to be all weight on the stance ski. Second, by not looking for grip right away you allow the skis to tip to higher angles before the tension builds. Once the pressure builds tipping is done. Think soft in hard out. This is not psia pushing hard at the bottom of the turn.

Geoff was in the group, did I leave anything out?

[polecat]

Max_501, thanks for the link.

CO_Steve, Thanks for the details of your camp exercise. But I'm confused by the phrase "tension in the ankle muscles."

How do I activate the muscles in my ankles to increase or decrease "tension?"


pc

[CO_Steve]

Basically everything below the shin that serves to lock the ski/boot in position relative to the lower leg.

[polecat]

So you're saying that 100% tension means I hold it a fixed angle, maintaing position against whatever forces try to move it?

[CO_Steve]

As good a description as I can think of.

[cheesehead]

I will stick my neck out again .... I experienced the same thing Sunday -- our hill has 3" of new snow over hard icy stuff. So when I hit a thin patch, my skis would skitter down the hill.

So, I thought about it a bit. For me, I often have the counteracting. But when I have steeper angles I am not counterbalancing enough. I do lean forward, but I am leaning towards the ski tips, not halfway between the feet and the tips as I believe should be done, as Noclever says, in order to get weight bearing down on the edge. You could say that is a lack of counterbalancing, since if I am leaning towards my tips, my hips aren't turned enough, but since counterbalancing and counteracting often work together, I should get better results either way.

I was hoping to try that out this weekend, but we got about an inch of rain last night on an already thin base, so I don't know if our season is done. At least no tornadoes so I definitely can't complain.

[dan.boisvert]

Polecat, do you ski at Wildcat? If you do, you regularly deal with a grade of ice that gives a lot of people nightmares. When I know I'm going to be doing battle with New Hampshire's finest, there are a few things I focus on:

1) Edge tuning--if I hit a section of shiny gray powder while hockey stopping, I should feel my edges clawing at it, not sliding on it. If they don't, they're not sharp enough.
2) Look for piles of snow to turn in. This helps lots, and if I can get most of my turn done on a pile of snow, it reduces the time I have to accidentally blow an edge.
3) Shove my feet behind me as far as I can at initiation. If I don't start the turn by bending the tips into the turn I want, I'm starting off in a skid. Once you start skidding on that stuff, it's really hard to stop.
4) As Max said in the linked thread, commit to the new outside ski 100% and then tip the hell out of it without hesitation. Higher angles hold better than lower angles.
5) CA & CB are essential (no pun intended). When a lot of people feel their edges start to slip, they lean into the hill. This is pretty much the worst thing you can do. If you start to slide, crank up the CA & CB to get pressure back on the outside ski; if nothing else, you'll at least be sliding in a balanced position from which you can start a new turn, rather than on your newly-bruised hip.
6) Avoid plantar-flexion. When the entire mountain is shiny, it's easy to go into "oh crap!" mode and, when this happens, my feet like to try to grab for grip. This is a horrible idea, because it puts me in the back seat, which makes everything worse. I do focus on edge pressure more than I typically need to, though. Putting functional tension into the foot and keeping the big-toe edge pressed against the inside of the outside boot helps with grip.


If all else fails or it gets really cold (which makes ice harder), switch to a race-stock ski. The right tool for the job make a big difference sometimes..

[geoffda]

In essence, it seems to get one's CM right over the tipped edge thus increasing the direct downward force that creates the hold.

This. If you want to hold on ice, you must be able to stack all of your weight such that you can come down hard on the side edge of the ski in the part of the arc where the turn forces are trying to pop the ski loose. As Brooks Dodge once famously said, "the best way to stop a skid is not to start one". So you must start with a clean transition without any kind of steering. Once on your new edges, you must balance through the top third of the arc. Spend that time getting yourself ready to increase the tipping during the middle third of the arc. You can't ever let your skis get out from under you. In the bottom third of the arc, you had better be in position to come down on the side edges to keep the ski gripping.

But really, this all comes down to developing the Essentials. You must tip cleanly to new edges. You must never push off or extend (or you will imediately break the ski loose). Flex to release and allow your stance leg to get long as you move into the turn, while still staying over your skis--which means counterbalancing is critical. To really and truly hold, you must be able to get your feet well behind your hips and you must also have strong counteracting.

As a starting point, I would suggest trying to ski slow, brushed turns on gentle terrain with the Super Phantom transition with focus on transfering weight completely to the new stance foot as part of your release. Brush the turn, but end up standing on that outside ski with everything you have. As Co_Steve mentioned, you must have ankle and leg tension in the stance leg. If you aren't carrying tension in the ankle, the edge angle will decrease and you will lose grip.

As you progress to blue terrain (and beyond) you will need to counteract *and* counterbalance in order to hold. When you counteract, it causes your counterbalancing movements to be directed out over the ski; i.e. you will feel like you are leaning out over the fallline. If you don't do this, if you don't get over your skis, they will slide out from under you. You can help that movement by paying attention to the inside hand--it needs to end up nearly over the LTE of the inside ski at turn finish.

There isn't any magic to skiing ice, but you do need all of the Essentials. If you are struggling, keep working. Raise your game enough and skiing ice will just start working for you.

[polecat]

Thanks Guys!

That gives me some great stuff to work on. I'm away from home now, I'll report back on my progress when I get back.

Dan, I'm on the left coast. If I ever get out to New Hampshire I'll have to check out Wildcat.


pc

[Ken]

Rewording what Geoff and the others said, and adding my own drills---

You need to be counterbalanced over the inside edge of your outside ski. While you don't want it to skid, if it does skid, you want to ride with it and not have it skid out from under you as it does when inclined toward the hill. You must start the turns so smoothly that you roll on edge and let the ski ride the edge around the arc like an ice skate.

Try a few drills. On a moderate icy slope, put the downhill ski on edge and smoothly ride that edge in a J-turn uphill to a stop. Counterbalance on the outside ski to the point where you can momentarily (or longer) lift the tail of the inside ski off the snow. Tip the inside ski to control the radius of the turn, counteracting all the way. Do this both directions. Gradually increase the starting angle down the hill as you continue to ride the edge without skidding. When this is going very well and you're feeling cocky, try some turns. Make the transition and entry into these turns so smooth that you don't start a skid. All the PMTS movements apply as always, and smoothness is critical. As your skills sharpen and your smoothness increases, increase the pitch of the hill. Sharp edges plus smooth PMTS movements give you the result you want. I like a 3° side edge angle and maybe 0.75° bottom edge angle, sharpened all the way to the tip & tail curves, if you can find a shop that will do what you want.