Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

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Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby arothafel » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:07 pm

For two days I was on my Head Monsters (171) skiing wind-blown packed powder at Mammoth. By the third day it was getting a little scraped so I changed over to my TT80's (170).

What a surprise. When I lock-carved the TT80's it felt like they just wanted to hold on to the turn. I really had to think and almost aggressively release the ski by pulling my stance leg up.

Is this due to the difference in the shape of the tails? Do you guys who ski this combo notice this difference?

To me... very different skis. Even though I've had both pair for a couple of years, I'd never A/B 'd them back to back like this. My take-away is that the TT80's require more precision and attention. And, lifting a hip to create more angle is like throwing on the "after-burners!" Got thrown in the back seat more than once.

I'd be interested to hear impressions from anyone who skis this similar combo...
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Re: Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby HighAngles » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:54 am

I'm interested in how the mount positions compare. Have you adjusted either or are you just using the factory marks?
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Re: Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby Skizoo » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:38 am

Good timing with this post. I just got my TT 800's (170) a week ago. And have been skiing my Peak 78's (the M78 version) and the TT's more or less on alternate days this week depending on conditions. I am skiing the TT's 1 CM FWD and the Peak's neutral. I also have experienced some of what arothafel describes, especially the comment about getting tossed into the back seat. Never experienced this with my SS's which are set at the factory marks. I have not yet tried moving the bindings back on the TT's.
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Re: Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby jbotti » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:58 am

IMO there are a few things that could caused your issues Art. Was it wind buff with soft snow underneath or was it hard through? TT 80's would breakthrough a wind buff layer more easily. On anything hard, hard chop, bumps, crud etc I find the TT 80's easier to ski. I have skied them forward 1.5cm but I usually have them on the line. A thinner ski that sinks lower into soft snow will always require more flexing to release, but I don't think is a factor on anything hard. I find them easier to ski off piste than the SS's because the tails release easier, not harder then the SS's. It could be that your IM 78's are base high and the opposite of grabby and your TT 80's have a much tighter base bevel and this requires more precision to release the skis. You would notice this immediately. This would be my guess on the reason. My TT80's came with what appears to be a .5 base bevel and my IM 78's came with a 1 degree. I have not ground my IM 78 bases so they are probably at 1.5 right (maybe approaching 2) now and they need a grind. There is a big difference between the IM 78's and the TT 80' and yes the TT 80's require more precision to release (which is not a bad thing). You can take a true bar to both skis and see what the difference in base bevel looks like.
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Re: Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby arothafel » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:30 pm

The technical stuff:

Both skis were fresh tunes: (Plug for Mammoth skiers: Command Performance in the little mall just past the Chart House. Ned and Robin tune skis for most the local racers and do a great job - as well as treat you as if you're the most important skier to grace the hill!

Monsters: 1 / 3 base/side -- factory mount
TT80s: .5 / 3 base/side -- forward 1.5

I have no doubt the differences in tune and bindings mount make a HUGE difference.

And, to your point, John, the snow was wind-buffed with "grippy" sandpaper type snow underneath. The TT80's simply sliced through the soft snow and just hooked-up like crazy on the harder pack underneath. Took a little getting used to after being on the Monsters.

I'm not complaining whatsoever. Whatever issues there may be... it's the skier and not the skis. I've spent the last 4 years ridding myself of equipment issues ie: Dodge Boots, Harb alignment, Head Skis, adjustable poles, etc. (the perfect set-up for me). So, for this skier, the TT80's seem to require a greater awareness of fore/aft.

I was just wondering if others who have this quiver combo notice the difference in the way the skis react or perhaps have a different experience. Maybe for those who get a lot of ski days and have mastered edge control.. the differences may not be so dramatic.

For me it was like Jimmy Buffet vs. Joe Satriani!
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Re: Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby seskelson » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:29 am

Great skis. I own:

Mnoster 78 - 177 cm.
TT 80 170 cm
Peak 84 - 177 cm.

As I have menitoned in other posts the M78 has been my go to one ski quiver for 3 years now.. If I don't know the ocnidtions that is the one I take. The new Peak 84 is great and may replace it as the go to ski. See my comments on the gear froum.

The Icon 80 is the one that I take if I know it's going to be groomed or at least not deep powder. Wonderful skis. I had two pair of the prior Supershpaes, but for me in patorling the Icon still gives wonderful edge hold, but is not so hair trigger on the shape. When you are sideslipping or snowplowing (I know that term is not in the PMTS vocabulary and I far and away sideslip more than most when doing a toboggan ) The Icon is more forgiving. The Supershapes always wanted to hook up and turn - imagine that.

I called Head last week to varify the factory tune setting as I took my IM78's in for a good tune up (I've called Head before, but called to talk again to their tech guys) - and they indicate all their skis - except races ski are set at 1 and 1 - base and side from factory. Frankly I've always liked it.
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Re: Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby HighAngles » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:03 pm

arothafel wrote:The technical stuff:

Monsters: 1 / 3 base/side -- factory mount
TT80s: .5 / 3 base/side -- forward 1.5

I have no doubt the differences in tune and bindings mount make a HUGE difference.

For me it was like Jimmy Buffet vs. Joe Satriani!


Satriani and Buffet are definitely from two different worlds...

I'm not surprised at all to see that you have much more "tail" on the TT80s. Although there have been mentioned many other factors that can come into play here, the plain simple truth is that you're dealing with radically different binding positions. IME, many skiers who don't like forward mounts really need to work on their releases. When you have more tail you really need to have your release mastered.

So my recommendation is to test moving your binding mount forward on the Monsters. That's right, don't move the TT80s back, but go forward on the Monsters. Then really work on your releases and enjoy the rewards.
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Re: Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby CO_Steve » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:47 pm

Just my two cents on binding position on these two skis. I've owned both. The TT80 mounted on the line was just about unskiable. Would not turn when tipped. Going 1.5 forward transformed the ski. I have the Peak 78 from two years ago (the good year). Going forward on these didn't yield any significant improvements until you went too far and things went sour. The ski just didn't seem to respond much to the changes in position. I generally ski all my hard snow skis ahead of the line.
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Re: Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby milesb » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:29 pm

Pretty simple- the width of the 78's make the ski want to flatten when pressured, the width of the TT's make them want to stay on edge when pressured. You got used to the easy release of the 78's. Plus you undoubtably had the TT's on a much higher edge.

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Re: Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby Max_501 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:11 pm

They are two completely different skis. Width, radius, construction, etc. The TT80 is a detuned SL ski but it still packs a punch if you get back on it. That's why I have said its not as forgiving as the old SS.

I ski the TT80 center or 1.5cm forward depending on how tight I want it to turn.

I ski the Peak 78 in all 3 positions, depending on what I'm skiing. POW = 1.5 back, All around = Center, Hard snow carving = 1.5cm forward.
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Re: Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby HighAngles » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:31 pm

I have skied both skis myself. Note that I only provided the advice I did because both skis are Head skis and Head traditionally goes with a factory mount position that is more rearward and rewards skidding of the skis. Although both skis are different widths, I don't recall the default mount positions being radically different - both were rearward positions. I would not provide the same advice for 2 totally different skis that were different makes. In that situation I suggest taking measurements and ski testing to find the best mount position for you.
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Re: Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby Max_501 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:05 pm

All the Head skis I own and have demoed ski fine at the center mark. Moving the binding forward 1.5cm simply increases performance on hard snow by making it easier to decrease the radius.
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Re: Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby HighAngles » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:23 am

The standard factory mark on Head skis is well behind BoF on center of RL and even behind their sidecut geometry. Sure, they can be skied from there, but you're making it harder than it needs to be.

There have been numerous studies and discussions on this topic, but in general many manufacturers place their factory mark further back because most recreational skiers can't handle having more tail due to their poor technique.

Max - you're a phenomenally good skier and you've put your time in to get there through diligent practice. I'm sure you can ski a 2x4 from any position. For mere mortals please take my advice and experiment with your mount position.
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More on binding position

Postby AnI » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:13 pm

I cannot agree more with the statement that TT80 becomes so much lively with bindings in +1.5 position. Today, I tried TT80 with both centered and +1.5 positions, and the difference was very noticeable. In +1.5 position, TT80 loves to turn and turn as a slalom ski with very little initiation effort. In the centered position, this ski behave (all other conditions being equal) more like a GS ski, i.e., does not want to go into a shorter radius turn unless you really make an effort and feels a lot more like a soul-less boring ski.

There was an interesting article on this topic on Lous.ca:

http://www.lous.ca/Tech%20Articles/BindPosArticle09.pdf

(or full list at http://www.lous.ca/tech-articles.html)

It is an abridged summary of a research article. I will quote one paragraph: "Late research supported by Nordica compared the factory binding position on one of their carving ski to the binding position found by a device called the Campbell Balancer. The Campbell balanced position was significantly preferred by the seven skiers in the test, despite that on average, it was 3.7 cm ahead of the factory position".

THe author also states that "Binding position is not determined by ski designers nor is placement determined by flex or waist position. Rather, after a ski is designed and prototypes are made, ski testers determine the position for recreational skis". So it all depends on who is the tester, and how he likes to ski. PMTS skiers may have different preferences than other groups of skiers.
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Re: Monster/Peak 78 >> TT80

Postby marsound » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:25 pm

Dumb question: how does one find the center mark and adjust forward on the TT80 with powerrail bindings? I don't see a center mark. I've moved it forward by measuring from the BSL indicator (moving toe and heel equally). Am I missing something?
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