Something is changing

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Something is changing

Postby sgarrozzo » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:39 pm

Something is changing in italy. In Jam Session, an Italian ski school which work primarily in summer in Les Deux Alpes, now have started skiing in this way:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/64703438/Js-S ... a-Condotta
Doesn't look like the Fig. 1-8 Pag. 14 in Essentials?
There are some differences, also for an untrained eye like me:
the feet wider, the arm in few pictures, ........ but there aren't very big!!

This is the description of the release:

We realize that give solidity to the side of the body outside the curve will put us in balance. With the edge in gradual increase and also the muscular contraction, avoiding bending-failures as we travel the border we feel with the ski "glued" to the ground, with the body strong, compact and in balance. Feeling really strong during the curve, that by magic will be resolved in the right time and with natural ease.
To "give up" (abandon) that border just leave to escape the mass of the trunk, head and shoulders toward next border, reducing muscle tension and "feeling" the feet reducing the edge, gradually going to seek coupling to next turn .
The trajectory of the trunk cross the ski and pass over, our body will be turned gently (it is not necessary to extend, on the contrary, we must curb the tendency to excessive extension) in an opposite angle of inclination to the previous one, ready to tackle and manage with maximum solidity and compactness the sliding support on the new side.
During this phase of change, displaying on the ground next virtual parabola will induce us to "transfer" the muscular action from the side of the curve just made to the outside of the new turn, to take again a solid support on the border. As it will be instinctive to create the side with the foot, bending the body and resisting with the "leg nerve" the forces that tend to kick us outside of the turn, we have obtained a gesture already well coordinated.

My english is bad, so I hope that there are only a few errors

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jzEgy4q ... ure=relmfu

Now watch video from 3:13 to 4:50.
It isn't PMTS

What do you think about?
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Re: Something is changing

Postby geoffda » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:48 pm

sgarrozzo wrote:Something is changing in italy. In Jam Session, an Italian ski school which work primarily in summer in Les Deux Alpes, now have started skiing in this way:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/64703438/Js-S ... a-Condotta
Doesn't look like the Fig. 1-8 Pag. 14 in Essentials?
There are some differences, also for an untrained eye like me:
the feet wider, the arm in few pictures, ........ but there aren't very big!!


Focus on what is going on at transition and you will see the differences are much bigger than you think. These guys are not tipping (in the PMTS sense) to move from edge to edge. They are relying solely on the forces of release. You can see that if you go frame by frame through their transitions. What you will notice is that they are generally inclined and they don't counter balance until they are well on edge. As a consequence, you will notice that the hips are always first into the turn, leading everything below. One of the reasons that PMTS advocates a narrower stance is because it is very difficult to tip when your legs are wide, and these videos demonstrate that.

Another big difference in transition was the active leg extension. Why were these guys rising so much in transition? If you don't know how to tip, you are forced to come up so you can incline and use the lever of your body to pull you onto edge as you fall into the new turn.

Tipping is everything in PMTS. Every other movement that is not tipping is designed to support or enhance tipping. But tipping isn't a straightforward concept. If you want to understand PMTS (and how it is different), you must start by learning what tipping is.
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Re: Something is changing

Postby federico » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:55 pm

I was writing an e-mail to HH with a report on Italian ski situation but you cast a pebble in the pond, and a big one, so I reply.

Harald first asked me about Jam session ski school last november when I was skiing in Tignes, he found them on Youtube and was curious.
I sent him other links to their videos, he answered that they have some very good points when they ski agressivly expecially Albertini e Rigamonti
(former good Europa cuppers and B-team, now national instructors) but when they
ski short radius turns they show too much pivoting and extending,that is true
so we come directly to the black beast of italian skiing.

The black beast of italian teaching and skiing system is the concept
of PROIEZIONE AVANTI-INTERNO [forward-inside(diagonal)body projection]
that is the worst tool ever to recenter a skier at the transition,
expecially with shaped skis.

It has a lot of bad consequences both for intermediate and expert skiers.

An intermediate has two chances:

1) he cant perform the move (is obscure and mystical) and so is stuck in the back seat

2) he finally arrived to perform that holy graal move and he discovers that:
a) he overpowered the skiis losing contact with the snow, big push
washing out the tails, no way to control speed in short radius turns,
no way to perform a decent medium or large turn.

A top expert skier:

1)free skiing he can arranges performing that, generally resulting in a **BIG UP MOVE** so he must looses a lot of time to recover and correct,
he looks unelegant, in a short radius turn he is OBLIGED
to set abruptly the edges in the last third to control speed, is tremendously tiring and unsure.

2)in the gates: is simple, THEY DONT DO THAT, point.

Now to demonstrate what I stated above I put a link of the same guys (most of them Italian Demo team)
and I permit myself to suggest to all of you what to look for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHL0G4InJo&feature=related
Skip the advertising and go directly to:

1.15 > not bad but not perfect, air transitions, as Geoffda stated, accomplished without tipping, just relaied on forces good skiing, but not sufficient at that level
(italian national instructor and demo team), the guy with the white helmet is often in a too cifotic posture in transition, chest too leaned forward,
hips too high from the snow, both legs too extended, skis too long disconnected from the snow. Tipical product of the infamous proiezione avanti-interno.
2.00 > very good GS skiing (lot of offset lot of ice, medium/high pitch, I skied it)
2.54 > Oriano shows some difficulty to engage high C in medium arcs
3.00 > sorry for Paolo but this a dead end exercise with a lot of up move and legs twisting
3.52 > Albertini e Oriano Rigamonti showing a jump & brake coreographic turns,
this is BAD skiing very well performed by two good athletes, didacticaly is pure B.S.
average people on the hill,even with skills, cant do that, better ways to ski SRT

Is it all to throw in the garbage?

No, they teach to start with the ankles and they spent a lot of time making people
dry practicing rolling feet inside the boots, they want people counteract and counterbalance,
they spend a lot of time on an exercise on hips level similar to hip-o-meter, in the
general panorama of Alps ski school they are much better.
Their race camps are good, this year they had Giorgio Rocca with them, the problem
is that they teach different things to racers in relationship of what they teach to free skiing camps.

The some thing is shown in new AMSI (italian PSIA) technical text, look:

Agonistic carved turns (with no up moves)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92gdN4-1GYo&feature=related
Didactic carved turns (with up moves)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h57l2VtogJo&feature=related
I dont link the rest of "Progression"(?) is typical TTS dead end REgression : wedge, christiania etc.
If this skiing progression were a dance this would be my comment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZwfHNb7q2I&feature=related

Last year after my first Hintertux camp i tried to mix things, worst move in my skiing life,
I only gained a couple of sore knees, after January I committed myself to follow only PMTS,
I received a lot of critics but my skiing improved. A lot. And I'm going on this way.

DONT MIX, it's not brilliant.

Ciao,
Federico

p.s. Sgarrozzo mandami un pm, fatti sentire anche se non puoi ancora sciare,
a novembre vado da Harald in Colorado.
Last edited by federico on Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Something is changing

Postby federico » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:42 pm

Geoffda wrote :

If you don't know how to tip, you are forced to come up so you can incline and use the lever of your body to pull you onto edge as you fall into the new turn.



Perfect.

They insist a lot on the feeling of "falling" to create huge angles.

Tipping is all.
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Re: Something is changing

Postby sgarrozzo » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:44 am

The black beast of italian teaching and skiing system is the concept
of PROIEZIONE AVANTI-INTERNO [forward-inside(diagonal)body projection]


This is the first thing that frightens me, i wonder how can I ski entrusting myself to only balance on the foot while I am bending the legs?..., renouncing to the PROIEZIONE AVANTI-INTERNO [forward-inside(diagonal)body projection!! :cry: ...and pertinent twisting of the feet?


Is it all to throw in the garbage?

No, they teach to start with the ankles and they spent a lot of time making people
dry practicing rolling feet inside the boots, they want people counteract and counterbalance,
they spend a lot of time on an exercise on hips level similar to hip-o-meter, in the
general panorama of Alps ski school they are much better.


Starting with the ankles isn't clear to the whole italian skier's comunity.
You are shore?
I read some topics in the italian ski forum and there some people tell that in Jam Session are teaching that the move start from the hip.... and also in the WC race
is the same!
http://www.skiforum.it/forum/scuola-sci ... otion.html
Watch fioccodineve's post and then the answer of baldaxski.

I agree with your comments and especially on how stupid is teaching a different technique according to the type of skier. In another jam session video they reaffirm that depending on the skier: beginner, intermediate or expert the turn problems must be solved respectively in the third sector of the turn for the beginner, in the second for the intermediate and in the first for the expert or agonist.

Ciao Federico, many thanks for the answer. Tomorrow I'll send you a pm in italian, because for me is very difficult writing in English and in some way dangerous, for what I can write and I don't know can be.

Focus on what is going on at transition and you will see the differences are much bigger than you think

In video things are different from the photos and I can see that there is a difference, but with you review I can fully grasp this difference between this skiing and PMTS.
Also my first impression is that this way of skiing is energetically more expensive than PMTS.
I think that in my first PMTS time I'll be like a bird in the nest waiting to fall. :roll:
thank you Geoffda
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Re: Something is changing

Postby federico » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:27 am

Sgarrozzo wrote :
Starting with the ankles isn't clear to the whole italian skier's comunity.

Be careful not to identify italian skiers comunity with Skiforum users.
Most people who write there has more confusion and less knowledge then Epic,
Brigitte Bardot and Vir Rapidus could be giants in comparison...

I save only Malf64 (of Jam sesssion ski school) a serious professional but sometimes he contradicts himself,

Fantaski is worst, sometimes there are big names who pass there (1 exemple: Lara Gutt !!!) but they wisely AVOID technical
area.

I'm used to ski here in Italy with some friends who happen to be national instructors, a very good one (Franco Pecchio)
who incidentally says 99% of what HH says,
Italian A-team responsable and Innerhofer coach (Gianluca Rulfi) a bunch of good coaches,
lot of friends ski instructors and I skied different camps and (misfortunatly only one) one whole
day with Harald, who I prefer, with cognitio causae, but the others are great skiers too.

This skiing people of internet forums you mentioned, generally are pure B.S.

Ciao, sorry to be so polemic but I spent a zillion of money and time following unqualified people,
so I hope You dont fall in the same trap,
Federico
Last edited by federico on Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Something is changing

Postby h.harb » Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:43 am

http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2011/09/demonstation-with-up-movement.html

In the video link posted here, the second one in particular, by Federico, there is some very good skiing. I'm not sure the coaching is based on this skiing, at most of the fundament levels and respects. There is one skier in particular who stands out, he connects without, up movements and even in the GS, he uses mostly release with energy, not push. Many may know that I am adamant about teaching the same movements at lower levels, as to the expert. If you don't do it this way, you end up a dead-ended skier; Federico says, spend zillions on getting stuck.

In the video, is this PMTS, no, in some respects there is PMTS skiing at the high levels, but not at the lower and advancing levels. They still show and demonstrate crazy, exaggerated, up and pivoting movements at the advanced levels. The weakest of the demonstrators, extends, leans, rotates and squats his hips, he is a TTS ski school product; Even if by TSS standards, he's good. It doesn't matter he skis differently than the others, because he's a good athlete?

What many European nations do, is use ex-Europa cup or World cup skiers to demonstrate their (supposed) ski school techniques and how they work at the upper levels. As we see, some of the runs and skiers in the second video are excellent..However these are not the same skiers or same instructors that use these ideas and methods, at the instructor levels in ski schools. We saw the poor showing of advanced skiing by most demo National Teams at Interski, last season. This again proves that the ski racer, skis with different techniques then what the ski instructor in their national systems use. We don't teach a different technique, in PMTS, at the different levels.
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Re: Something is changing

Postby sgarrozzo » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:54 am

Hi Harald,
fine to see you.
http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2011/09/demonstation-with-up-movement.html

Here you say:
"This puts his hips low and behind relative to his ski boots, very early in the arc. When ever you ski like this, you do use some uphill leg extension to initiate the body toward the inside of the next arc."
In fact they don't use to pull the feet behind the hips in transition. As we can read in other documents that were published in the magazine "Sciare".
Now I understand: Tipping, tipping, tipping...... always... and everywhere.
But don't you think that sometimes can be dangerous, specially if you are in the "up side down" position?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/skier ... ure?page=3
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Re: Something is changing

Postby sgarrozzo » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:02 am

HI Federico, when I tray to send you a PM it doesn't start.
I don't understand why, it is very strange.
So my email is g_galgani@hotmail.it if you can give me yours I'll send you a message.
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Re: Something is changing

Postby sgarrozzo » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:02 am

HI Federico, when I tray to send you a PM it doesn't start.
I don't understand why, it is very strange.
So my email is g_galgani@hotmail.it if you can give me yours I'll send you a message.
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Re: Something is changing

Postby h.harb » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:38 pm

http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/

Compare this to the first series on this thread.
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