CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

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CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby jepoupatout » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:08 pm

Today i read a very comment from Idahorob and i questioned myself about the efficacy of the movement, if we follow the principle of the kinetics chain is it more efficient to initiate CA and CB from the hip . However in the essential it is mentioned to move forward and up the inside arm after we pole to develop CA and CB. Do we have to combine everything together :?: Driving the pelvis as the inside arm simultaneously :?:
idahorob wrote:
A month ago I was at Super Blue Camp and Diana gave me a lot of homework about counterbalance. It's paying off. One of the main things I've learned is I have to lift that inside hip. This should probably help you, too, as it lessens the amount of lateral bending you have to do with your lower back. Raising that hip will start to move your upper body over the new stance ski without so much "crunch" on the stance side of your body. The other thing I got recently is that it's easier for me to go for counterbalance at the beginning of the turn, rather than have to create it later in the turn after I've moved more out of balance. At transition I quickly remind myself about foot pullback and as I pull the new free foot back and in, I start to lift the inside hip and get the counterbalance started immediately. It gives me grip with the stance ski like never before. My next thought is to start counteraction and that also needs to be initiated with the pelvis. That way you minimize twisting forces in the lower back (if you initiate counteraction from the chest or shoulders, you'll produce too much torque in your lumbar area). Those three things: foot pull back, counterbalance, counteraction probably take place in less than a second. After two days of practicing that last week, I can say they're less like actual thoughts and more like reminders tacked onto movements.

I don't know if anyone else approaches it along these lines, but it seems to make a huge difference for me and my back doesn't get tight by the end of the day and my "hip lifting" mucles in my waist don't get exhausted. Maybe some of this would be useful for you, and if so, you're welcome to it!jepoupatout

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Re: CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby h.harb » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:33 pm

I've probably said this 1000 times, if I've said it once. There are many ways to achieve the combination of hip, pelvis, torso and upper body tilt to CB, as there are ways to tip your skis. Some people don't feel their feet yet in skiing, so you have to tell them to move their knees to the side.

Some don't know which way to tilt or rotate for CB or CA, so you begin with the hands and the arms, so they can at least have some idea of what they are trying to accomplish. If I could tell everyone to lift the inside hip using the combination of muscles needed and it would work, great I'd do it all the time, and do only it. But in the real world that is not how it works, everyone is different and everyone is at different levels and abilities of movement.

In our camps we offer as many different approaches as we need for people to gets their movements to go in the right direction. The deeper you get into understanding your own body the more success you will have with skiing movements. The upper body, hip, pelvis and arms, should move together. If you are trying only with your pelvis up or down, you are going to be a long time coming before your skiing is right.

We have many skiers who are "opposite" to correct, pelvis movers. They lift the wrong side, in the turn. We know that telling and showing them to lift the inside pelvis, to correct the pelvis has limited success, so you begin with the arms then the shoulders, work your way to the pelvis, (pelvis movements are what people are least aware of), to finally adjust the level. Probably the best way to get down to the pelvis correction quickly, is to work it out for yourself when you are off your skis. Do the wall leans or sits, as described in my books and web site. Then you have to keep practicing the movement while skiing.

I know skiers can often set the pelvis perfectly, time after time, while standing still on the snow, but as soon as they start moving it goes the wrong way.

I often hold their pelvis in the right place to convey the right situation. It's a battle with yourself, your own body, but the answer is, build the whole torso, shoulders and arms included, to get down to the correct angles for the pelvis.

And for Pete's sake, correct yourself as you come to a stop for your last turn. This is often the most frustrating to watch, skiers are working on a specific movement while connecting turns, but when they come into the last turn of a series, and come to a stop, they just let go or quit. That is your most important turn, don't give up on the last turn, that's where you can check yourself to see if you have done it right.
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Re: CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby jepoupatout » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:52 pm

Harald if i understand correctly it is a mix of the three elements Shoulders/arms and pelvis. If your arms and shoulders are at the right place without being aware of the pelvis you are not sking at your best and a piece of the puzzle is missing.
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Re: CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby h.harb » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:09 pm

Yes, you can see it in Max501's hip relative to mine, in the link to my web site he put up. http://harbskisystems.com/blogs/tech-bl ... rbalancing My hip is more level and my upper to lower body has more angle. Max has everything going for him in the photo, arms, shoulders etc. except the pelvis tilt, lifted on the inside. He has since learned how to increase this movement. However, he was a very good skier already and it took him intense focus on this, practice, practice, for him get the hip to sit at the correct angle and in the right place, during loaded turns .

You can also look at Helluva skier's early pictures, avatars and see the change he made in this regard. Huge! Most coaches don't address this issue, either they don't see it, know what it can do or don't know how to go about fixing it.

Helluva skier did it through books, videos and the forum. It's possible.

This increased inside hip lift is not trivial, once you get it, it's not harder to hold, it makes your skis hold better, which gives you more confidence to drop into bigger angles. . I have to, from time to time "every day" remind myself to focus and increase this movement, as it can go away.
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Re: CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby jepoupatout » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:15 pm

Thanks Harald for the comment, for sure i will try to mix the three elements together. I think i will see the impact in my black run where more CA-CB and tipping are necessary. Actually in Quebec the snow is very icy and a small adjustment like this: hip combined with arms and shoulder for CA and CB will certainly help to have more grip on the ice. :D
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Re: CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby h.harb » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:50 pm

Out here in Colorado, we are weak, spoiled skiers. You can almost do anything here to create a turn. Where you are, it's real skiing, where you have to have everything working for you. That's why you see Epic talking about inclination and extension, being OK, they have a luxury you don't have, easy snow. When I teach, I teach movements that will benefit you anywhere and on anything. How do you think those 104 mm skis with turned up tips and tails will work at Mt Tremblant at -20 after a rain storm?
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Re: CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby h.harb » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:25 pm

My job is to make solid skiing accessible to all our clients. That is why I won't tolerate the recent mis-leading posts on this forum. I can't believe the audacity of some people, they come here and tell us who and what to listen to, when there is a complete skiing formula offered here, proved and tested. I won't offer "short cuts" here, whether equipment related or technique, these are just dead ends to your skiing. Poor skiing and short cuts, maybe popular in other venues, but PMTS skiers will be treated with the respect that 55 years of real skiing information provides.

We offer, here and with PMTS, what it takes to ski properly, and advance with realistic expectations. Short term fixes with no advancement, are the formulas that a huge group of retired skiers can relate to you. That is what the industry is producing. The day of reckoning for all these fake forms of skiing are just around the corner. Skiers will find other enjoyable activities to pursue (and there are many) as the sport gets more complicated and more fragmented, and in a sport where it is becoming more frustrating to find good information, everyday.

I'm sure we are having an international growth spurt in PMTS, (demonstrated by the You tube interest) which always attracts a variety of people, detractors and intervenors. When I see unproductive activity, I deal with it. There are many other skiing forums or web sites where you can get opposing or contrary ideas about skiing, from PMTS. I encourage skiers to compare, this is a free society, just don't bring it over here unless it's valid. If you are here and want to be here, great, I encourage participation.
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Re: CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby HeluvaSkier » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:46 pm

h.harb wrote:And for Pete's sake, correct yourself as you come to a stop for your last turn. This is often the most frustrating to watch, skiers are working on a specific movement while connecting turns, but when they come into the last turn of a series, and come to a stop, they just let go or quit. That is your most important turn, don't give up on the last turn, that's where you can check yourself to see if you have done it right.


Amen to that. As a coach, I think this is the most frustrating thing to watch in a student. Imagine you have a student who is on the verge of a big breakthrough in their skiing and they actually nail whatever they are striving for in their series of turns - until the last turn where they just give everything up - throw it all away and revert to poor skiing again. I've seen is many times, and I'm sure Harald has seen it even more in his years of coaching.

When I'm skiing to a specific purpose I always finish. Maybe it is my racing background coming through - but I finish every run, and every turn. If I'm working on something I don't give up on the last turn. If I feel like I haven't "gotten it" I want my last turn to be the best. If I nail that turn, then I have a mental image (and feel) of what that movement feels like that I can take to my next run and apply it to every turn (in theory).

FWIW, this is a last turn... 2008 @ Loveland.
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Re: CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby SkierSynergy » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:19 pm

An old post on the hip in counter balance that contains example pics.

A good PMTS.org newsletter with an article on the topic. See p.4: Energy that Helps with Release and Transition

Other good newsletters available at pmts.org
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Re: CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby HeluvaSkier » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:15 am

h.harb wrote:You can also look at Helluva skier's early pictures, avatars and see the change he made in this regard. Huge! Most coaches don't address this issue, either they don't see it, know what it can do or don't know how to go about fixing it.

Helluva skier did it through books, videos and the forum. It's possible.


Thanks Harald. By last season it became very apparent that my skiing was becoming mroe and more text book PMTS. Without feedback through the forum and tons of information that has been published or is written here I think my skiing would be very different - and certainly wouldn't have progressed as fast as it did.

You said above that there are no shortcuts in PMTS [there aren't] - but in reality - if high level skiing is the goal, PMTS will take a skier to that level faster than any other approach. The lack of extra "quick fixes" is what makes PMTS so valuable. Quick fixes aren't technique - they are just band-aids for an underlying deficiency [In reality, things like wide stances, steering the skis, leaning into turns, and pushing off the edges are all bandaids for not balancing, not tipping, and not properly releasing]. In PMTS everything that is taught is for a reason and serves a very specific purpose. In TTS you will often hear instructors describe skiing as a series of linked recoveries because for them - it is. Their "technique" is an amassment of quick fixes but very few of them have ever learned how to actually ski. The sad part is that there are many out there that really do want to learn. It is always a lot of fun for me to be able to show those skiers a path to take their skiing to new levels, because that is what has been done for me.

Here are some links that will show a definite progression up to last season (for the newcomers who haven't seen it). This season will show even more (some big improvements are on the way), but I don't have much video yet.

viewtopic.php?t=2332
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2814

In particular look at the changes in stance and CB between 2006 and 2010. For me, CB has been (and still is) something I need to work on constantly in order to ensure I am using enough.
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Re: CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby kirtland » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:04 am

Jay,
Thanks that is great. This is something I have been trying to sort out the last few years. This is helpful.

Harald,
I have done a search on Hip Flexiblity that you are referring to here and can not find it. Can you give me the link to the post you are referring to here.

Postby Harald » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:36 pm
Rick, thank you for adding your personal comments about your learning and progress. I think it is always helpful to all skiers, if someone steps up and tells their story. Your sense of body and movement are becoming highly developed with the help of the Carvers. I?m glad my comments about the leg pull back were helpful. Have you read the posts on hip flexibility?

The post there and the exercise evaluation offers a view into personal hip usage and can add awareness of hip relationships, in creating both types of hip counters. They can either be achieved or restricted based on flexibility or activity.

Today, I had Chris, our Alignment Center manager, perform the simple evaluation (demonstrated on the thread) and he began to realize the differences in his hip placements. He has had difficulty with asymmetry in his hip counter acting and hip counter balance. The movements of the test demonstrated a range of motion that he had not yet realized was missing in his left turns.

Chris is an expert skier and carves clean arcs, but at times misses consistency in transitions on steep terrain. We are hoping his hip flexibility increase, will help his confidence and security on steep bump runs. This area of development is important to almost the whole skiing population. Counter balancing movements begin at the hips, not at the shoulders. As we become more in tune with hip movements and flexibility, shoulder movements


I did a search Hip Flexibility Chris and Hip placement Chris and Hip counter balance Chris and couldn't find it.

I have a real limited range of flexibility in my hips and have been working on increasing it.
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Re: CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby idahorob » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:08 am

h.harb wrote:I've probably said this 1000 times, if I've said it once. There are many ways to achieve the combination of hip, pelvis, torso and upper body tilt to CB, as there are ways to tip your skis. Some people don't feel their feet yet in skiing, so you have to tell them to move their knees to the side.


So true. There are many ways to get there, but one thing I see is that good PMTS skiers are very similar in the end. All the parts of the movement are integrated into a whole that is efficient, powerful and graceful. The coaches and several of our forum members can help spot individual gaps in awareness and provide possible cues for helping with that as individuals need. They also take into account body type and build. For example, Diana told me that I needed to make more effort at CB than the other skiers in our group because I have longer legs and a shorter body. Of course! The geometry of it makes perfect sense, but I doubt I would ever have thought of it. She was able to give me specific movements to do that helped and now seem to be paying off (hope to get video soon - I know only two skiers who can operate a camcorder. One is recovering from surgery and the other is injured).

Indeed, our progressions towards expert skiing are varied, but we're all heading towards the same goal.
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Re: CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby h.harb » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:15 am

Harald,
I have done a search on Hip Flexiblity that you are referring to here and can not find it. Can you give me the link to the post you are referring to here.


It is posted above by Max501 and in my text: http://harbskisystems.com/blogs/tech-bl ... rbalancing

This is just the teaser or introduction to becoming aware, it's not a real program. The real work has to be done on your own time with your own body to discover the range you need and the effort it will take for you to get to that range.

You can ask JBotti how long it took him to unlock his hips, lower back, there are others who have worked diligently on this including, RichK and Midwif. They may give us some insight. I personally never had to work on it, so I can only relate it to my bad knee side, where sometimes I cheat and lean away from that side not really engaging that hip. I had to consciously lift the inside left hip while skiing, to make sure I avoided leaning away from teh pressured ski. But it didn't take months in the gym stretching. Some people have to go through the gym period. Page 129, in the "Essentials of Skiing", book, I show level hips with skis tipped and holding hips level, you can use a wall without skis on, to practice. To keep level you have to lift, with effort, the inside hip.

In skiing photos and video, the hips are not always perfectly level. It's the idea of level or hip engaged we are striving for, the uncoupled hip is obvious, usually it is shown by the side of the body being a straight line from ski boot to shoulder, if the hip is uncoupled.
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Re: CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

Postby h.harb » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:23 am

Harald if i understand correctly it is a mix of the three elements Shoulders/arms and pelvis. If your arms and shoulders are at the right place without being aware of the pelvis you are not sking at your best and a piece of the puzzle is missing.


The pelvis also needs to be held in a counteracted state for this to be happening. It's really hard to just move one hip up or down on the lateral plane, add some counter acting to help the hips stay level.
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