What is "park and ride"?

[Smackboy1]

At the expense of seeming a bit ignorant, can someone explain to me what "park and ride" means? I know it's a negative thing, but I wouldn't know what it looks like or feels like if my life depended on it. Thanks.

[arothafel]

I'll take a stab at this since I think I've perfected this move... or should I say lack of movement.

To my understanding, "park and ride" is when you dump your hip, discontinue tipping as well as discontinue pulling the free foot back. In essence, you are riding the turn instead of remaining active... more tipping throughout the turn, constantly pulling back the free foot and getting the inside hip lifted.

Others will add more definition to it, but that's my take. I'll look for some video as I'm sure it will demonstrate it.

[milesb]

Good definition Art. I'll add that even when you are just cruising along, a constant tipping of the inside ski to the little toe edge, flexing the inside leg, and inside ski pullback will usually eliminate any chance of "catching an edge".

[Smackboy1]

To my understanding, "park and ride" is when you dump your hip, discontinue tipping as well as discontinue pulling the free foot back. In essence, you are riding the turn instead of remaining active... more tipping throughout the turn, constantly pulling back the free foot and getting the inside hip lifted.

Thanks guys, you've hit upon another mystery to me, what is "dumping your hip"?

I still don't understand "park and ride" enough to know if I were to do it, what are the symptoms? Is the ski carving or skidding? Turning or going straight? Is the turn radius increasing, decreasing or staying constant?

[Matt]

In a proper turn the body parts are moving relative to each other all the time. If you end up in a static position at any point in the turn you are in a state of "park and ride".

[geoffda]

Thanks guys, you've hit upon another mystery to me, what is "dumping your hip"?

I still don't understand "park and ride" enough to know if I were to do it, what are the symptoms? Is the ski carving or skidding? Turning or going straight? Is the turn radius increasing, decreasing or staying constant?

Park and ride means doing just enough to get the ski to engage then riding the sidecut around the turn. As others have said, the symptom is that you stop moving once you obtain an edge. Park and ride skiers can't control their speed because they have no way of controlling the size of the arc. They are completely frozen once the ski is on edge.

Dumping the hip is when you actively move the hip into the turn, rather than letting it passively move into the turn as a result of foot tipping activating the kinetic chain. I think of it as "hipping" rather than tipping. Hip dumpers often start the turn by twisting their hips as if they were counteracting (but they aren't tipping so there is nothing to counteract). This produces a straight inside leg as they fall into the turn. Then they are stuck. This position locks up the inside leg so it can't be tipped any further which means that the turn can't be adequately controlled.

When you do the dry land tipping exercises, notice the sequence of the kinetic chain. Tipping your feet, tips your ankles, which causes the knee to move. The hips should lag until all range of motion is used up in knees. Only after the knees can go no further will the hip move in.

[arothafel]

O.K. at risk of embarrassing myself...video from last year. I think this may be a pretty good example of "park & ride" as well as hip dumping... along with extension and push-off, too. Notice how quickly my stance foot/leg is fully extended. I have no where to go. So, I believe this leaves me no choice but to become static.... park and ride it out til. Don't do this! Also notice at the end of the clip that I have no pullback of the free foot... it's tip leading and counter-productive!

Compare it to Harald, Max 501, jbotti or helluva's videos and you'll find much more activity going on, more forward, more tipping, more everything! Hope this helps.

[Smackboy1]

Let me see if I got it. So is this guy's skiing an example of "parking and riding"? It looks like he is carving by moving his knees and hips into the inside of the turn and riding the edges. When I first watched this I felt that there was something not quite right about it, but I didn't know what.



So to avoid "parking and riding" I have to continue tipping the free foot and pulling it back, but isn't this going to make the turn radius tighter and tighter throughout the turn? What if I want to make a constant radius turn?

Does this have something to do with controlling speed on steeps at the top of the turn instead of the bottom? HH says that in the new PFS DVD and I remember thinking that I had no clue what exactly that meant.

[Ken]

The forces during the turn change, so you need to change your movements to balance them. At the top of the turn centrifugal force is pulling you up and gravity pulling you downhill. In the middle, centrifugal force is outward and gravity downward. At the bottom of the turn both forces are pulling you down the hill. You need to increase the "strength" or "power" of your movements to handle the increased forces. A constant angle of the skis on the snow results in a constant radius turn ONLY if there is no displacement of the ski on the snow or no displacement of the snow under the ski. We know that isn't the case.

[nickia]

Park and ride means doing just enough to get the ski to engage then riding the sidecut around the turn. As others have said, the symptom is that you stop moving once you obtain an edge. Park and ride skiers can't control their speed because they have no way of controlling the size of the arc. They are completely frozen once the ski is on edge.

Does it mean if you can vary your arc size, you are not parking and riding? For example, you carve a large turn then tip more to carve a tighter turn then tip less to carve a larger turn.

[nickia]

Harald should make a "diagnostic" dvd where he demonstrate major skiing flaws so people who can't go to his camp can at least self-diagnose. It's not perfect but it's better than living in the dark.

[jbotti]

For me it's all about the ability to bend the ski. I spent quite a bit of time being abae to "Carve" but all I was doing was getting them on edge. I noticed how Harald was able to make the skis bite back into a steep hil and ski tight arcs on steep groomed terrain. Riding the sidecut is not that hard to do. High level carving involves getting the weight forward enough that the tips will bend and this tightens the arc. For me the real test is to watch skiers (or oneself) on steep terrain. If you can carve one or two arcs on steep terrain and then in te next few turns you are skiing wide GS or super G turns, you are not getting the forward pressure necessary to bend the ski and tighten the arc. Doing this on really steep and iced up terrain is actually one of the hardest things to be able to do in skiing, so there are degrees of being able to carve at a high level. I personally hate when slalom skis end up with me skiing super G arcs. I know I have not accomplished what I wanted to on the steep terrain and if I am not totally focused and on my game, I can have this happen on any real steep slope.

The other thinhg that will tell you if you are bending the tips is the level of rebound you are getting out of the skis. On good skis, if you are truly pressuring the tips, you will have some amount of pop on almost every edge change. On the ISL rd's or Head SS Kers, if you really stay forward and start the arc hard and early, you can pop yourself off the ground on every turn. If you are getting nice rebound, you are forward. When you get to the steeps it's not enough to stay forward at the beginning of the arc, but you have to be able to stay there the whole time to keep the skis biting on every turn. Watch Harald!!

When watching video or other skiers it is very easy to see if someone is in the proper fore aft position. The hips need to be even with or preferably slightly in front of the ankle of the stance ski. Look at any good skier or WC racer and their hip is in front of their ankle at the apex of the turn. This is the position from which one can "Drive" the ski, versus riding the ski.

[Carl R]

I'll take a stab at this since I think I've perfected this move... or should I say lack of movement.

To my understanding, "park and ride" is when you dump your hip, discontinue tipping as well as discontinue pulling the free foot back. In essence, you are riding the turn instead of remaining active... more tipping throughout the turn, constantly pulling back the free foot and getting the inside hip lifted.

Others will add more definition to it, but that's my take. I'll look for some video as I'm sure it will demonstrate it.

What if you dump your hip down to the snow early in the turn? In that case it's rather difficult to get any lower later in the turn, don't you think?
I don't think 180 degree turns can be compared to 90 degree turns.

[Matt]

I'll take a stab at this since I think I've perfected this move... or should I say lack of movement.

To my understanding, "park and ride" is when you dump your hip, discontinue tipping as well as discontinue pulling the free foot back. In essence, you are riding the turn instead of remaining active... more tipping throughout the turn, constantly pulling back the free foot and getting the inside hip lifted.

Others will add more definition to it, but that's my take. I'll look for some video as I'm sure it will demonstrate it.

What if you dump your hip down to the snow early in the turn? In that case it's rather difficult to get any lower later in the turn, don't you think?
I don't think 180 degree turns can be compared to 90 degree turns.

You still have to adjust tipping, CA and CB throughout the turn.

[Matt]

For me it's all about the ability to bend the ski. I spent quite a bit of time being abae to "Carve" but all I was doing was getting them on edge. I noticed how Harald was able to make the skis bite back into a steep hil and ski tight arcs on steep groomed terrain. Riding the sidecut is not that hard to do. High level carving involves getting the weight forward enough that the tips will bend and this tightens the arc. For me the real test is to watch skiers (or oneself) on steep terrain. If you can carve one or two arcs on steep terrain and then in te next few turns you are skiing wide GS or super G turns, you are not getting the forward pressure necessary to bend the ski and tighten the arc. Doing this on really steep and iced up terrain is actually one of the hardest things to be able to do in skiing, so there are degrees of being able to carve at a high level. I personally hate when slalom skis end up with me skiing super G arcs. I know I have not accomplished what I wanted to on the steep terrain and if I am not totally focused and on my game, I can have this happen on any real steep slope.

The other thinhg that will tell you if you are bending the tips is the level of rebound you are getting out of the skis. On good skis, if you are truly pressuring the tips, you will have some amount of pop on almost every edge change. On the ISL rd's or Head SS Kers, if you really stay forward and start the arc hard and early, you can pop yourself off the ground on every turn. If you are getting nice rebound, you are forward. When you get to the steeps it's not enough to stay forward at the beginning of the arc, but you have to be able to stay there the whole time to keep the skis biting on every turn. Watch Harald!!

When watching video or other skiers it is very easy to see if someone is in the proper fore aft position. The hips need to be even with or preferably slightly in front of the ankle of the stance ski. Look at any good skier or WC racer and their hip is in front of their ankle at the apex of the turn. This is the position from which one can "Drive" the ski, versus riding the ski.

Well put Jbotti. I have a question though. I think I read somewhere else that Harald said that he did not get shinbang with the new Dodge boots because he stays centered most of the time. So the question then is how hard does he press?