Fall Line

[cheesehead]

So is there really such a thing as a "fall line" ??? I have been doing the tipping exercises and in the descriptions they say to do such-and-such as you get to the fall line? But is there really a LINE ? Maybe I should be thinking about other things as I am doing my transitions but I am just not getting the concept of the LINE. It seems like you can do a transition anywhere and you don't need a line to tell you when to do it.

Am I being overly nitpicky about the concept? (yes, I know the answer is probably yes)

You can file this under pointless rant if you like ...

My ski club is open every afternoon next week and I have every afernoon off. We have great snow and the temps are supposed to be around 20.

Merry Christmas y'all.

[WNYSkier]

Two ways to find fall line:

1. groomer tracks are usually vertical and follow the fall line.
2. make a snow ball and roll it down the hill, it will follow the fall line.

cheers,

[Max_501]

So is there really such a thing as a "fall line" ???

Absolutely!

I have been doing the tipping exercises and in the descriptions they say to do such-and-such as you get to the fall line?

Can you be more specific with what you are working on?

[h.harb]

We refer to the "line of force" that gravity provides on a slope, as the Falline. This is the line that produces the most amount of pull. There are still degrees of pull slightly off angles to each side of the Falline, as we have all experienced.

If you are trying to engage before the Falline, you are on to the right idea, but if you finish your arc, steeply into the Falline, you will have more pull and ski acceleration (when the skis are flat in transition) then you maybe able to handle. This is why we say finish the turn, or complete the arc to form the bottom of the letter "C".

We always talk about the "High C" as being super important, one of my main themes in the new DVD, if you don't ski with a "High C" you are making "J turns" which will not end up well.

Until PMTS came alone there was no mention of the "High C" in ski instruction. Mostly because the concept of edge change, without direction change, had not been conceived, at least not in the way we, PMTS teaches it. If you don't teach tipping first, you will always be domed to creating "J turns".

And you can take that to the bank.

Fundamentally PSIA and Epic coaches teach "J turns". They may not want to admit it, but put any one of their skiers, or trainers in a pressure situation, and they will make only "J turns". If you teach leg steering before tipping, you are doomed. What does this have to do with the Falline? Everything, you want to use the Falline or the pull of big "G" to make skiing relaxing. If you steer before tipping you will always fight the big "G", and that's all our friends on the other side will ever do.

[HighAngles]

I'm reading cheesehead's post in another way. I think what he's saying is that the fall-line is just arbitrary line that is used when describing PMTS movements. It's also possible to make the same movements, especially in transition, without regard to where the fall-line actually is. In this situation the imaginary line dictated by gravity (the fall-line) is replaced by the line down the mountain that represents your direction of travel. Did I get this right cheesehead?

Obviously if you're not skiing directly down the fall-line then turns to one side will require different levels of CA/CB and timing than the turns to the other side. We all run into this often if you ski double fall-line runs where the direction of the slope does not follow the fall-line.

I've actually had this same exact thought when watching the the second Essentials DVD when Harald explains the pole plant. I was already mentally replacing "fall-line" with "direction of travel line" when Harald describes the proper pole plant placement down the hill. The description of pole plants on that DVD really is only accurate if you're skiing directly down the fall-line. Hopefully I've got that right. If not please correct me.

[h.harb]

"Pointless rant", maybe not, more clarification might be in order.

It seems like you can do a transition anywhere and you don't need a line to tell you when to do it.

This is correct if you want to do half turns or edge sets or unfinished arc. The idea in teaching is to get everyone to set a base standard for their turns. The base or "Example turn" is one that encompasses all the techniques and virtues you want and need to become an expert skier and one that helps you control speed. There is a time and place for the turns you refer to, but they are not the ones I was referencing when I described where to finish a bullet proof short turn relative to the falline. What I am referring to in my books and video, are the "Example Turn", which is a turn with a "high C" start and low "C" finish. In such turns there is a reference point to when the skis enters the Falline, to begin a release. If you don't care to make round brushed carve, bullet proof short turns, proceed as described in your post.

Hopefully I've got that right. If not please correct me.

Well, if you have it right and it may well be that you do, but it will sure complicate the hell out of skiing, which is already complicated enough. If I am confused by your point, there are probably at least a handful of others in the wings that will be "really" confused.

In this situation the imaginary line dictated by gravity (the fall-line) is replaced by the line down the mountain that represents your direction of travel

This is really confusing, as 99% of the time your direction of travel should not be down the mountain; it should be either toward the side of the trail or back into the trail. You are only directed to the bottom of the mountain for a fraction of a second, when you are actually in the same direction as the Falline.


The line (ninety degrees) off the moving outside ski is a reference that always moves with you. It can always give you a reference for which way your body is facing relative to the outside of the turn. Use this line to aim the pole tip for the no swing pole tap. This does not have to be related to the Falline, however, if you don't finish an arc with a "Lower C" finish into the falline, you won't have a bullet proof short turn or a brushed arc turn. BPST and Brushed Carved turns are the turns where the Falline reference is used. If you want to make edge set turns (no bottom C), use the ninety degree, no swing pole tap reference shown in the videos. Also, in flat terrain, with short carved arcs that are not finished completely into the Falline, to such a high degree as carved arcs on steeper terrain; you can use the ninety degree line off the outside ski for your CA and pole tap reference.

[h.harb]

Are you confused about the Falline? Here is a reference. In my Avatar, I am headed right down the falline and also right down the mountain. I am in this relationship to the slope for only a fraction of a second. After that I am headed back into the Falline. Every degree after that, I am crossing a Falline that is moving with me. When I can, I begin my release, this is determined by a sufficient angle to the Falline, where I perceive that my pressure has built to the max, then I release. The bottom of my arc finish, is usually 45 to 50 degrees to the Falline. But it can be easily 70 degrees, ninety degrees into the Falline would constitute too much turn finish. Once out of the arc, you are traversing, the turn is dead.

[Randall Pitt]

Cheesehead. I understood the exercises to mean that you had an idea where your next turn was going to be(looking ahead). With that in mind, you usually ski into the fall line momentarily at or around the apex of that turn(point in turn where your outside ski is the furthest horizontal distance away from the transition) . Once you determine where your want to turn you also by default have a specific fall line defined to base your transition off of.

Of course if you're just free skiing not giving a thought to where you want to turn your transition can also be anywhere(relative to the next turn). But when all is said and done, for each turn you made there was still an optimal transition point that you may or may not have executed optimally for the given turn. Practicing the exercises enough will
dial-in that optimal point for you so that engagement through the fall line is smooth and efficient.

Every degree after that, I am crossing a Falline that is moving with me.

Interesting topic. Not to make it a racing question - only for the reference points. Say the apex of you avatar turn was a GS panel and you were being taken 30 meters across the hill to your next gate via a delay gate. Say that the next gate was set on a fall away where the "line of force" was greater than your traversing or moving "line of force". At some theoretical point(the fall away) your moving "line of force" would switch to the new greater "line of force" that would no longer be 90 degress to your outside ski. Since you're now skiing more or less into the new "fall away" fall line with unloaded skis(or at least what a 20 meter traverse would give you) would your transfer/engagement be handled with a different technique(PMTS Part deux), ultra agressive flex and tip, or would it be a tactical line change to put your outside ski more towards 90 degrees to the new "fall away" fall line?

[h.harb]

In reference to the early part of your post, when I ski either gates or free ski, on moderate to steep terrain, I always try to get the most energy out of ever arc. This means loading the ski to the optimal without scrubbing speed. Those who have skied with me will attest to this, as my preferred way of skiing. I test my turns by making the arc the most efficient carve for the given turn size and terrain. I don't think about falline or direction of the ski.

I use load forces and sense of glide to determine my release points.

Of course in a race course, I have to conform to the line, but my brain still works off of the loading sensations. The falline and line of the outside ski are reference points to learn timing and body alignment. Once you have figured these out, you don't need them. This takes lots of mileage.

I'd like to know how some of the experienced skiers on the forum trigger their releases and how long it took them to get to relying on pressure and load of the skis.

Using the falline when skiing, as a trigger, is not optimal, but it's a start. Most skiers don't plan well for turn size radius and completion. In my camp groups, I often use, following, as an introduction to turn connections. When skiers follow my turns, they often react by saying, "I start my turns so quickly". Actually I don't, it's their impression. Most skiers wait until they have dumped the arc or energy from the arc, to time the next one. When I have skiers follow me, I'm resetting their internal clock, for turn timing. It always amazes me how few skier see one turn connected to the other.

In the gate scenario you describe, with a delay gate and a right hand fallaway after it, you rise slowly, in the traverse, before the initiation, so that a slight flexing can lighten the skis to begin the tipping action. These are the most delicate and difficult turns in GS, as there is no connection or reference to a previous turn or series of turns. You are taking your body out of rhythm.

[Max_501]

I don't think about the fall line in relation to my releases. Its based on feeling pressure and where I want to go. Not sure when I made the move from thinking about where I should release to feeling when I should release. Probably 2 or 3 seasons after my first PMTS lessons.

[h.harb]

Perfect, that's a huge step in anyone's skiing progression.

[h.harb]

Guys, the plan has been worked out and though over for decades. You are making this far too complicated. Don't try to reinvent a technique and description that has endured for a decade or more, if there were a simpler more obvious way to describe this, the brain trust at PMTS would have come up with it.

There are no short cuts to figuring out spacial awareness while you are skiing. MAx501 took three years after his first PMTS lesson, and that's fast. So the longer you try to reinvent, the longer you will be in a state of confusion. You have to accept, don't fight this or you'l regret it later. Michael Jordan said, when asked, "To what do you attribute your success as an athlete." He responded, "Complete and utter confidence in my coach."

This was a survey that Sports Illustrated did with top athletes, from all field s of sports and predominately the answers were the same as M. Jordan's

It doesn't mean have total faith in me, it means in what the coach is telling you, in this case the coach is PMTS, indirectly it's me.

[WNYSkier]

I'd like to know how some of the experienced skiers on the forum trigger their releases and how long it took them to get to relying on pressure and load of the skis.

I trigger my release around a combination of the magnitude of the pressure peak, intended direction of travel and timing for the following turn. What changes is the rate of release to best utilize the energy for a given situation. I never trigger the release after the pressure peak as the ski is dead and you are left with no energy to help you through transition and into the high c of the next turn. I will release before the pressure peak if lesser direction change is called for. The fall line never comes into play in timing of release.

I have been aware of the pressure peak for many years, but never really understood how to use the release and pressure peak to best advantage until I started working with Harald about 3 years ago. I listened and then experimented in many different situations until it has become almost second nature, but I learn a little bit more every time I ski. I think fluid skiing at the highest level becomes a game of energy management: Energy from the mountain (gravity/pitch/snow), energy from the skis (reverse camber/edge angle), and energy from the body (mass/muscle/direction) all work in concert to produce a seamless series of arcs on any terrain, in any condition.

Cheers,

[Randall Pitt]

For most turns I try to trigger the release when my tails are fully juiced and I'm online. The float makes transfer less mechanical and more natural especially if you can stay flexed throughout to create big angles very early in the high C. You just don't have the luxury of time to extend up and through transition and today's side cuts have made those moves obsolete. Back in the day we used to extend up at release and use gross(and they were), slow, inefficient upper body movements to try and load the tip of the outside ski early. Harald has cleared this up for us by downplaying the need to "startle" the ski with unnecessary overloading of the tips at engagement in the high C. Pattern your movements to let the ski track like it was designed to with simple(ok maybe not simple) fore/aft movements.
In regards to spatial awareness, the turns I do most are dictated to me by the fall line and spatial awareness is an unfortunate reality of success or failure in being near turn completion at the fall line. Its understood that spatial awareness of the fall line for skiers learning new movements is unnecessary and more often than not counter productive.
::start rant (You pushed my button cheesehead :>)
{Sadly, this irrelevance of the fall line's role continues on to the intermediate skiers. This comes back to bite them as they advance onto the steeps, moguls, or other challenging situations where successful turns will be dictated by proper line selection(think turn apex's before the fact) coordinated with, not exclusive of, ingrained dynamic movement patterns(think PMTS - its all you need to succeed) that have to be executed to near perfection in a fast closing window. They have no concept how to time these movements(tip/flex aggression modulated by appropriate countering supported by a proper for/aft platform) as they lack spatial awareness of the terrain, pitch, and rapidly approaching fall line which 9 times out of 10 they're unaware of as they don't deem it as being important. All dressed up without knowing where to go. I understand that most of you feel the fall line is irrelevant but on this one we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've had too much success with technically proficient skiers that couldn't buy a decent turn on the steeps until they practiced running brushes where the turns were dictated for them. This exercise forced them to look ahead at least two brushes to recalibrate on the fly there line selection to keep them ahead in the game. For the first time in their lives they were being forced to time their movements for success based on good turn completion through the fall line and punished unmercifully by being careless, undisciplined, and unaware of where they were going and how to finesse their movements to get them there fit and on form long before the gruppetto arrives. }
::end rant.

Luckily, for PMTS students and athletes, these movement patterns were well thought, researched, and handed to the skiing public on a silver platter. You'd be surprised how many years it took for a lot of us to figure out these movements on our own. If it wasn't for the shaped skis I'd doubt many of us every would have. I think my post quota for a newbie is exhausted - I'll disappear now.

[Max_501]

I'm in agreement with HH. This is getting too complicated. Keep it simple...learn the Essentials...have fun skiing.