Questions

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Questions

Postby dbntina » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:03 am

After coming back from the camp this week I am thinking through a lot of the things I have learned and trying to figure out the context of everything. I have a few questions that I would like to get some clarification/answers on from the PMTS veterans on this board.


1) One Footed Release:

a) This is the phantom move/super phantom move correct?

b) This is basically ending a turn and setting the little toe edge of the previous inside foot down and lightening/lifting/tilting the previous stance foot (becomes the new inside foot) and pulling it back to get forward on the ski’s?

c) This release can be used whether brush carving or edge locked carves correct?

d) The majority of the weight is on the stance foot correct? (90% or more?) Under what circumstances might this increase/decrease one way or the other?


2) Two Footed Release:

a) This is the basis for the BPSRT? Is this basically because you don’t have enough time to make a distinct one-footed release in steeps or ungroomed terrain?

b) Are the ski’s continually weighted about 50/50? Under what circumstances might this increase one way or the other?

c) This release can be used whether brush carving or edge locked carves?


3) When practicing railroad tracks on flat terrain this would be considered a TFR?


4) When is it preferable to use a TFR over a one footed release? I can definitely see a one-footed release with some WC skiers when edge lock carving like on the dvd of ACBES 1 but I have also seen what looks like a TFR on edge lock carves as well.

Thanks in advance,

David
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Re: Questions

Postby Max_501 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:55 am

Simple answer. Master both and you'll end up using both in all conditions.

Some examples: generally in a SL race course I will use a one footed release because I need the fastest release I can get (note: a one footed release is going to get the CM moving into the new turn quicker than a two footed release), but sometimes I'll use a two footed release. In the GS course its typically more of a two footed release but I'll still do a one footed release on occasion. Generally in powder and crud I'll ski with a more two footed weighting, but even then there will be occasions where I release one footed. Skiing on groomed runs I'll use both.

Practicing rail road tracks would be two footed.

Either release can be used for BSPT or for edge locked arcs.
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Re: Questions

Postby ibMED » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:45 am

dbntina wrote:After coming back from the camp this week I am thinking through a lot of the things I have learned and trying to figure out the context of everything. I have a few questions that I would like to get some clarification/answers on from the PMTS veterans on this board.

2) Two Footed Release:

a) This is the basis for the BPSRT? Is this basically because you don’t have enough time to make a distinct one-footed release in steeps or ungroomed terrain?

b) Are the ski’s continually weighted about 50/50? Under what circumstances might this increase one way or the other?

c) This release can be used whether brush carving or edge locked carves?


3) When practicing railroad tracks on flat terrain this would be considered a TFR?


4) When is it preferable to use a TFR over a one footed release? I can definitely see a one-footed release with some WC skiers when edge lock carving like on the dvd of ACBES 1 but I have also seen what looks like a TFR on edge lock carves as well.

Thanks in advance,

David


David,
I think the two foot release is original phantom move release of Expert Skier 1 & 2. In Expert Skier 1, Harald used the phrase "release, transfer, engage" to describe the sequence. I believe TFR is done directly off the weighted stance ski via a tipping move to flatten the stance ski. Then all balance is transferred to the new stance ski. I don't think the intent is to share weight anywhere near a 50/50 split. HH has always advocated keeping the stance ski fully weighted.

Harald introduced the Super Phantom in the CD for Expert Skier 2 as a higher level turn that prevents stemming movements (as I remember). As it requires a small weight transfer to the LTE of the free foot prior to the turn ( establishing the O position or ride the pig), an additional movement is required. I really like the part of the CD where he introduces the Super Phantom and goes from one release to the other so smoothly.

My thinking is to get the basic TFR right first and I've been using that movement almost exclusively this year. I'm just trying to keep it simple. You can perform linked brushed turns with either release. For the recreational skier, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, try both and see what you like.

Anybody, if the above is not correct, share your thoughts.
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Re: Questions

Postby dbntina » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:41 pm

Thanks for the replies that helps a lot, I realize I may be misunderstanding the releases:

It sounds like if you want to make a quicker turn the one-footed release is the ticket because you get a quicker release?

It sounds like the phantom move (lift/lighten and tilt) is always involved whether a one foot or two footed release correct?

The one footed release is a lighten and tilt initiated at the beginning of the turn from the LTE of the previous free foot?

The two footed release is both skis are flattened (the previous stance ski a little before the previous free foot) and then the new free foot is lightened and tilted when the tips of the skis are approaching the fall line correct? The skis are flattened in the same manner as a forward sideslip?

I think it is starting to make sense if the above is correct.

Thanks for the replies!

David
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Re: Questions

Postby Max_501 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:34 pm

In off piste conditions you could be close to 50/50. Depends on the snow, your speed and your skis. In certain conditions putting nearly all of your weight on the downhill ski will push the ski too deep into the snow, causing it to get stuck. I've done it a few times...best to avoid that mistake. :D
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Re: Questions

Postby Ken » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:29 pm

David

In any case, master both. Your skiing will automatically select the release needed if you don't decide on one to use. Much depends on the density of the snow and whether you have weight mainly on the stance leg or weight divided as Max says, and on whether you're making brushed carves or locked carves, how much time you have to bang out that turn before you get to the previously unseen rock, how steep the pitch is and need to hold the edge, etc., etc.
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Re: Questions

Postby dbntina » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:44 am

Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it, that helps alot

David
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Re: Questions

Postby ibMED » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:02 am

Max and Ken,
I just want to offer a counterpoint to the "learn both" thinking when newer PMTS skiers or those who just don't get to ski many days per year are involved. I don't know how many days a year David gets to ski, but with an Ok. address, most in his situation probably don't do that many days. I think there is a strong argument to learning a solid TFR first and adding the other PMTS components to that release. Think of it as completing the first half of Expert Skier 2 before moving to the Super Phantom release and Essentials. Building a strong stationary TFR and TFR brushed linked releases is both a great foundation and more straight forward at the outset.

I mentioned above, I've returned to the TFR almost exclusively while I try to build in other essentials. My learnings are I'm much better in maintaining balance and able to project my upper body over the skis and down the hill. When working on other movements, the solid TFR is a control point to evaluate how well I'm doing.

At heart, I'm a KISS (keep it simple, stupid) person. Providing options, in most learning situations, can be confusing.
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Re: Questions

Postby Max_501 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:29 am

For most people the one footed release is easier to learn and begin to incorporate into their skiing. Its covered in book 2 before the two footed release.
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Re: Questions

Postby h.harb » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:43 am

With the Phantom Move you can test the rest of your Essentials. Extension and the Phantom Move don't work well together. For a Phantom Move to be successful flexing and tipping of the old stance leg must be the key. Keeping the lifting ski's tip on the snow tells you about your fore/aft balance. Weight shift isn't an Essential it's part of the RTE formula. But the PM creates RTE and weight shift more readily then with the two footed release. Tipping with flexing on and off the edges is key to making the TFR work.

Choosing, using or working with one of the two releases all depends on what you are trying to improve in your skiing. If it is foot tipping use the TFR. If it's weight shift and strong outside ski balance use the PM. If you want early balance, created in the HIgh C, practice the PM. I use a small PMs in quick bumps and fast edge changes for short turns.

If you watch my turns in the Trailer free ski video I put up, the last set of short turns, also shown in slow motion, watch the release, it's a PM. If you are working on reducing hip dump use the two footed release and make sure you keep 10 inches of distance between the feet.
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Re: Questions

Postby ibMED » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:03 am

Thanks Harald for the insights on what movement to use. A few questions for clarity.
Per the Glossary of Expert Skier 1:
Phantom Move: Activity of the free foot and ankle to invert the free foot and bring it close to the stance foot. This creates ski turning actions.
From the above, is the PM a release or is it more related to the actions of the new free foot?

Two Foot Release, per Chapter 4:Releasing, p.48. The TFR is described and shown in photo montage. The release is directly from the weighted stance ski. Via the "release, transfer, engage" concept does not the TFR require a strong PM following the establishment of the new stance ski?

Release from the Uphill Edge, per Chapter 4 : Releasing, p. 51 through 53. I think what is commonly called the one foot release or super phantom release is described and shown via photo montage. Are they synonyms? Harald does state the release from the uphill edge is easier for some to learn, but, I'm not sure if this applies mostly to the static drill.

I don't want to belabor my original thought of keeping it simple at first. My sense is that the two movements does create some confusion for persons new to PMTS.
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Re: Questions

Postby Max_501 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:59 am

The phantom move includes a one footed release as part of the movement.

For the static release drills, most people find the one footed version easier. "Lifting is for learning, lightening is for expert skiing". Lifting is easier. Both are used in expert skiing.
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Re: Questions

Postby dbntina » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:31 pm

I actually agree with IBMED on two points.

1) I have to believe I have put in a lot of time studying the videos, dvd's, books and reading the boards since last April (my wife would agree b/c of all the time I have 'wasted' just kidding) :lol: . Also, I would say that I do the drills like crazy when I get the chance. I will probably only get 10 -20 days of skiing a year. Even after all of that I am still a little confused because of the vast amount of material to learn. I think I understand correctly now thought that:

The phantom move is always used whether a 2 footed release or 1 footed release correct?

2) I have learned in many areas of my life that it is better to be really good at something then to be a jack of all trades and master of none. So that is why I ask the question, maybe it is better to master the 2FR and then move on to 1FR if the 2FR is easier, otherwise maybe I master the 1FR first and then move on to the 2FR.

I am definitely a KISS kind of person and would like to master things in order if there is such a distinction or progression that can be made.

But I realize I don't understand everything right now, so I would like to get advice and I appreciate any and all feedback.

Thanks,

David
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Re: Questions

Postby Max_501 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:11 pm

In terms of keeping it simple, Harald has given us a step by step method in Books 1 and 2. If we follow those steps (and do the tests in Book 2 before progressing in that book) we will have learned the various movements needed for expert skiing by the end of Book 2. Keep in mind that Book 2 builds off of Book 1. Take a look at page 28 of Book 2 and you'll see that the test you need to pass before doing the work in Book 2 is the Phantom Javelin. If you can pass the Phantom Javelin test then you are already using a one footed release in your skiing.

Next time you are on the hill try both the one footed release and the two footed release. Do at least one run of each. Let us know which of the two is easier for you. I have found that the one footed release is quite a bit easier. Releasing a weighted ski, getting it to flat, and then onto the new edge while it continues to be weighted (and therefore easier to catch an edge) is harder for me than lifting it and tipping it (immediate release with no chance of catching the edge).
Last edited by Max_501 on Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questions

Postby dbntina » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:28 pm

Okay, I will do that and let you know how it goes. I think I will put together a progression checklist based off of the books and consolidate the drills for each learning task. When I get that complete, I will post it and get any feedback or corrections to update it.

I think this will help me organize all the concepts into one place and it will be easier for me to see the big picture.
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