Clendenin Ski Method question

[dcm123]

I would like to improve my bump skiing and I have been thinking about trying one of John Clendenin's camps in Aspen. He emphasizes a softer edge with more use of the inside ski for speed control. I know he's certified black level in PMTS so I would assume his methodology would complement what Harald teaches at his camps. His method does seem to get skiers who were initially intimidated in the bumps skiing pretty well through them after a short time. However, I noticed that he seems to use a fair amount of inclination when initiating his turns in the moguls. I'm wondering if that might lead one into the habit of inclining when going back to the groomers. Any thoughts?

[jbotti]

I think that John Clendenon was at one time a certified black PMTS instructor, but last I spoke wth Harald about it I was told that he has not stayed current with his certification. As for what he teaches, much of it does appear to be rooted to some degree in PMTS. Having said that Harald does not teach "the drift" that John teaches. I have looked at his website and considered doing a camp in the past. It really is his skiing and the skiing of his stidents that has stopped me from doing it. At then end of tha day I want to ski like Harald. I think you are correct to notice movements that we here at the PMTS forum consider less than ideal.

[John Mason]

yes - he does not teach counter to get more edging other than the passive counter that will happen towards the end of the turn - your observation about inclination matches a conversation I had with him and one of his coaches. His coach used a single frame of Bodie to show that inclination was all you needed (gasp) after JC had told me that you didn't need to worry about counter.

He does teach a super phantom style move as the primary tool to ski bumps. That is balance on your uphill ski LTE then tip your free foot to create a turn around the shoulder of the bump. He'll describe for you how the LTE of a foot has goobs more nerves than the BTE and thus is better to balance on. But without the early counter you'll drift carve to the top of the shoulder of the bump (he teaches this drift a lot) till you have drifted by feathering the up hill LTE to the optimum spot on the shoulder of the next bump.

I had a lesson with him a few years ago and he did get me down the double black bumps at Aspen. In my case what helped me was he had me stay inches behind him and simply stay on his line. I tend to think too much in the bumps instead of flowing bump to bump. This worked for me.

Jon also took me to the Grateful Dead shrine tucked away on Ajax mountain which was pretty cool.

Other similarites with PMTS is JC is adament against any type of active rotary. We did many drills to illustrate how simply shifting balance (fore dips you down the hill while aft makes you climb up the hill) creates rotary effect (basically we did what a normal PSIA lesson might teach as 'pivot slips' without doing pivot slips though the result looked similar. JC teaches as Harald does that any type of rotary input disrupts balance and balance is the key to skiing. This modulation of fore/aft balance is then taught to be used as you drift while balanced on your upper little toe edge from the last bump to the next bump shoulder where you crank the next free foot tip to move from the 'drift mode' to the turn around the next bump shoulder. Those fore aft balance shifts 'guide you' to the next bump.

So while there are overlaps, when you add it all up, PMTS has improved it's communication with Essentials and JC is teaching his own approach now. From what I've seen in my few years with PMTS is Harold has evolved PMTS to more clearly teach what he has always done in his skiing to the average student. This evolution of PMTS probably will increase the difference between these two coaches as time goes on.

Disclaimer: I took this lesson with JC about 3 years ago during a club ski trip to Aspen. I do not know precisely what JC is teaching now and I'm only relating what my observations and rememberances were from that one lesson.

[jclayton]

Does JC use CA and CB when freeskiing bumps himself ?

[meput]

Two years ago when I was looking at skiing again after many years away from the sport, I found Peter Keelty's RealSkiers web site. His site made a good presentation of carving techniques to best utilize shaped skis. He used JC and HH videos and articles as resources. After watching and reviewing both, HH had a more elegant and organized presentation of technique. JC's videos skiing in the moguls with his students was not a style I wanted to emulate. It was not hard to find video of HH in the moguls which is much more to my liking.

Two seasons later, HH & PMTS has given me the tools to handle the occasional trips into the bumps (at 59, my knees can't handle them as part of my regular diet). My version of the brushed carve BPST has significantly helped me with speed control which is critical if I am to survive in the bumps. I need to do a camp or put up video for MA to help refine my "version" of BPST (but that is a different story). I can not tell you if JC's books would have done as well as HH's books, videos and this forum have helped me. My recommendation is just drink the PMTS kool-aid and stay here.

[ginaliam]

John had a nice series (taken from RSN and PlumTV) of videos featuring him doing Clendinnen method demos with fellow coaches, and ex-racer (Andy Mill) and buddies from the original free-skiing world cup days (notably Danny Pierce and the truly great Scott Brooksbank).

Unfortunately, He pulled these videos from his website-mostly because I think they are in his new DVD and he didn't want to give this away for free (which is another great think about Harald-the amount of high quality instructional video he makes readily available for FREE!)

Anyway-there were some great free-skiing, bumps videos with John and his crew and they showed his end product in a much better light than the you-tube 'John with Client X' demo videos. JC and Crew are as smooth as silk. I would think if you were in Aspen, It might be something (if you have the coin, of course) to set up a day lesson with JC or one of his coaches.

On another note: The best stuff on JC's site featured Scotty Brooksbank (who is/ was also a PMTS certified instructor)-he's the best 'real-world' bump skier I've ever seen (you can find his old stuff on the internet-he appeared in a mogul vid or two in the 80's and was the body double super skier in such legendary ski-raunchy movies like Hot Dog-and I know you've all seen that whether or not you want to admit it )-and I'm not sure where home base is for him (I think it's in Tahoe somewhere-I think he only works the occasional Clendinnen camp) but I'd take a bump lesson from Brooksbank in a heart beat.

[h.harb]

I've skied with Scott, in the bumps and we had a great time. He skis bumps closer to the way I do, than how John C. does. He was a Blue Level PMTS at one point and he skis much closer to the PMTS way. I am disheartened with JC's direction for bump skiing. I'm afraid it's a very low level skiing approach and not that easy to learn, and it will leave you as a permanently, low level bump skier unfortunately, and it's definitely not PMTS.

[DVLocal]

I have skiied with Peter Keelty here in Utah and 2 friends from California that have done lots of JohnC's week classes. Peter wrote JohnC's book that is available as a pdf.

As a broad brush description, I think that JohnC's approach is more for the baby-boomer who is visiting Aspen and wants to better ski the terrain there. Harold's is targeted more for athletic types that want to ski better - everwhere.

I followed the female half of my friends down a blue 50'? wide cat track - I was going twice as fast as she was on a relatively hard edge and I watched her drift her turns and traverses to control speed. I was staying behind her doing twice the distance. Then I realized what the difference in approach was.

[midwif]

A ski friend who has done a number of HH camps recommended CSM to me.
He had taken some classes with JC and thought that was the next "step up" for him to all mountain skiing.
Now, my friend is a smooth, efficient looking skier with PMTS type moves. I admire his skiing immensely,
so joined the CSM clinic put together my him and JC in January.

Now, just to back track, I had taken my 5th HH camp in December and come away really feeling good about my next work to groove in for the season.

I took the CSM class and kept an open mind. And REALLY tried to do the work being asked.

So, at the end of the camp what did I come away with??


PMTS is the way to ski the mountain. Speed control comes from free foot pull back and working on the essentials. Expert skiing, is expert skiing.
You can try short cuts, but there are none. You must practice, do drills (though maybe not to the extent that Max 501, JBotti etc do) and keep working on the basic principles.

Yes, you can be a better skier with either method. But, BOTH TAKE WORK, PRACTICE and DRILLS.

The CSM clinic involves an up-unweighting movement at the top of the bump. Also, counterbalancing and counteracting are de-emphasized. If all you want to ski is bumps, then maybe the CSM camp may be the perfect one for you. But, his method is not intuitive either. It takes drills, practice and work.
I came away from there with much of the work and advances I felt in the december HH camp wiped out. I spent the last day in Aspen working on PMTS type skiing.

In comparison, I also came away with an even greater appreciation for the professionalism of HH staff. The interaction's between campers/staff is always appropriate, respectful and fun. Feedback is truthful. There is no false "rah,rah". I pretty much know when I am skiing "sh*tty. I can feel the wedge, the stem , the slide, the ........ well, you know. Don't tell me I am doing great when I am not. I can handle the truth!!!
I was videotaped and never shown the footage. No feedback from that venue at all.

Oh, and CSM is about twice the price.

[h.harb]

up-unweighting movement at the top of the bump

This will never make you a bump skier except maybe in Aspen at Butter Milk on groomer bumps.

[jbotti]

Which begs the question since I havve never been to Aspen, what are "groomer bumps"?

[h.harb]

This is my phrase for bumps I use that describes learner bumps, on a green slope with three ski lengths of distance between them and only 1 foot deep.