Don't show this to Epic

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Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:16 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKPTRkQf-gc[url][/url]

He's lifting the old stance ski, no no no, bad bad bad. Too bad no one on Epic who criticizes these movements skis this well as this guy!
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:58 pm

But making an active weight transfer (lifting the new inside ski) PRIOR TO initiating a turn, or even at the moment of the initiation, involves, without exception, a negative movement of the body. It is inevitable.


This is a quote by a prominent Epic poster. Let him tell it to the best skiers in the world.
He has it wrong anyway, it's lift the old stance ski, if you want to do it right, it's lift the old stance ski, "dummy". If you are going denigrate PMTS at least get it right!
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:07 pm

It just keeps on getting better.
Like a bicycle, you can't turn right until you're leaning to the right (of at least one foot). If you move left to remain in balance as you lift your right ski, you find yourself balanced directly above your left ski. No lean, so no turn. Now what do you do? You have two choices. You can either move your body to the right, or move your support foot to the left. It's nearly impossible to get your body moving right after you've already started it moving left, when you're balancing on one foot directly beneath you (you could push off with your left pole, but this is hardly a normal move of experts). So moving the foot left is what almost always happens to people who start their turns this way.


So last time I checked, when I skied, I was on a slope with skis on my feet. And how is this like a bicycle. If I skied like I rode a bike I'd ski like this guy.
I'm so tangled up after trying to figure this out that I don't know my right from my left, let alone which ski I should lift and which way I should lean. And all this time I though leaning was bad?

It's nearly impossible to get your body moving right after you've already started it moving left, when you're balancing on one foot directly beneath you


This proves it, it's because he knows nothing about tipping. They ski buy leaning the body. This is such a sad case I can't even begin to understand why someone would go to all this effort to be wrong.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:09 pm

Looks like another season on the PMTS Forum is starting to warm up.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby Sam Snead » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:39 pm

Check out the 3rd in the series from the link Harald provided. Actual demonstration of feet pullback.

Maybe he's seen the essentials DVD?
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:13 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_79h1AaHLk&feature=related

This guy has to be given credit. He used to have the widest stance on the WC. As a result his performances were getting worst, he was going no where, he was not in the top ten for about three years. Another example is Mario Matt, who also had a wide stance, and was going no where. They have relearned and reinvented their skiing and now both are really back and competitive again. A wide stance is another PSIA and Epic catastrophe.

A wide stance especially a this level of skiing kills you, because it promotes a low hip position, which is very difficult to move from to the next turn. Also, it spreads your balance, which makes it very slow moving from ski to ski. The excuses that BB uses to justify a wide stance are hilarious. Just so no one can say I took the quotes out of context here is the whole deal in case anyone cares.
http://www.epicski.com/wiki/lifting-the ... bob-barnes[/url]
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby MonsterMan » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:24 pm

Precise leg steering requires both feet on the snow, with some space between them. Period. Here's another experiment: Standing again, both feet on the floor, comfortably and naturally separated, try twisting one left and right. Easy, right? Try twisting the other--piece of cake.


Sounds like a good way to rip my leg out of its socket in heavy snow. I think I'll stick to improving letting the skis do the hard work thanks very much. I wouldn't want to be that bloke teaching a lawyer who gets injured using that rubbish and latter discovers pmts could have saved the injury.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby A.L.E » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:06 am

I was in Breckenridge mid April 4 years ago and a group of "advanced" skiers were skiing with two plain clothed "examiners". Beautiful day, $40 buck lift ticket, a few inches of fresh, mild temps and the slopes pretty much deserted except me and them. The two examiners would ski down then watch and discuss as each of the group came down the hill. I was doing laps on the run, seeing them frequently and found a PSIA Rocky Mountains, BB authored, Level 3 skills pocket book on the snow as I came behind the group as they moved off, one of them must have dropped it. I should have asked them but I suspect they were instructors doing either a clinic or their L3 test. It looked nothing like a group lesson, it seemed serious. Not sure if certification tests happen at the end of the season??

Anyway, clearly they were all reasonably strong skiers. What stood out as they were doing carve and shorter turns on these blue groomers was the wide square stance of most of them and the serious up move of all of them. I watched them from the chair on numerous runs and the same BIG upmoves were a constant. The examiners were obviously not advising them otherwise......... :idea: maybe it was the demo team. :lol:

Now I see MA from a few of the EPIC apologists denouncing upmovement. Slowly, slowly a few are catching on trying to get part of the right program but with BB driving the golf cart with all that wide stance, leg steering, leg twisting gobbledegook those poor RM instructors I saw haven't got a hope.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby jclayton » Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:13 am

The guy with the yellow pants is Richard Berger . His stance knee does seem to bend in a bit ?? Everything else look great .

HH response:
He is slightly more knocked kneed on that side, as most of us are.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby ibMED » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:37 am

I'm proud to say that any compulsion to visit the instructional forum at Epic has been eliminated. The wisest statement Max ever made on that forum was that he was not looking for feedback about his technique as he had his one and only coach. Right on brother!

That forum reminds me of the biblical story of the Tower of Babel where everyone spoke a different language. There may be some truth there, but, wading through the b.s. sure would make it tough to recognize.

The video is a great example of PMTS basics of transferring balance to the uphill ski and tipping/lifting the new free foot. Basics, basics, basics! Or should I have said "essentials, essentials, essentials"
If you don't know where you're going, any ski turn will get you there!
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:41 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t9aD0jTOA8&feature=related

This is great skiing. If you slow it down at the transition he lifts his old stance ski on every turn. Even though lifting is learning BB, he still maybe needing it for a quicker transition to the other ski. His wide stance is troubling isn't it?
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby geoffda » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:39 am

This is kind of funny. I was doing some masters slalom training late last season and a local racer (who skis for UVM and was on track to make the USST in speed events until she got injured) was helping coach. Anyway, she was getting on me about widening my stance, but she herself skied narrow stance and...wait for it...used lifting the old stance foot to make quick weight transfers and turn initiations. I guess that must be why she didn't make the USST since lifting is such a negative movement :mrgreen: . Anyway, I asked her why she was skiing with such a narrow stance since she was advocating a wider stance and she told me it was due to the fact that her boot setup had her a bit duck footed. I didn't say a word, but I had to wonder if she was in her narrow stance when she was getting her results on the Eastern carnival circuit and when she got her top 20 in the combined at 2008 U.S. nationals...It is strange how even at the highest levels, the wide-stance thing is still so entrenched.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:17 am

Anyway, I asked her why she was skiing with such a narrow stance since she was advocating a wider stance and she told me it was due to the fact that her boot setup had her a bit duck footed.

It's clear she doesn't understand her own technique, and also doesn't understand skiing. Just because some one skied at the national level, (especially speed) doesn't mean they know anything about skiing. Look, you are giving these people way too much credit. I know life long observers of ski racing; coaches who have been working everyday with racers who have no idea about what they are teaching. This is sad but true. You have to search out those that really know and there are few of them.

The reasons for poor understanding of skiing are evident, poor training by US Coaches Ass., and a lineage and history of poor information being fed down to the next generation. And coaches can't figure out for themselves what they are looking at. They see a wide stance when the skier is in the meat of the arc. Look at the long time PMTS explanations of skiing biomechanics, we describe this part of the arc as "Vertical Separation", not a wide stance. Coaches still don't understand the difference, neither do most Epic coaches.

What is astounding is the mis information and debilitating information posted on the thread by BB. Is he doing this because PMTS was there first (ten years ago) with information that has increased in validity over the years, or is he really, obviously, this ignorant? He sheds a really poor light on the whole Epic effort to be a skiing influence. Anyone who tries what he advocates has to immediately realize his information and coaching will ruin their skiing.

It's one thing to be on the wrong track, that's sort of acceptable, but to go out of your way to criticize and denigrate what is easy to understand, simple to employ and immediately brings results, is just juvenile.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby jclayton » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:32 am

Interesting that BB does not mention tipping/edging once in his article .

Not once does he mention balance .

Always PMTS says change edges under the body i.e. lift - AND TILT - while in a neutral stance . How can one do an uphill/negative/lateral/"go to" movement when you have no weight on the skis ? One is however setting up to balance on an edge .

How does this guy handle "Palli" on a bad day ? Any videos ?
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:08 pm

FRANKLY I DON'T CARE HOW HE SKIS, AS HE PROBABLY DOESN'T TAKE HIS OWN ADVICE, HE WILL USE SURVIVAL INSTINCTS, LOTS OF ROTARY MOVEMENTS AND HOPPING ON PALLI.

IT'S WHAT HE IS DOING TO SKIERS, WITH HIS APPROACH, WHO WANT TO LEARN TO SKI THAT IS REVOLTING.
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