Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

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Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby porthacking » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:51 pm

I was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction on two points.

1) I have some carvers and for the next few months (July until skiing in Dec) will have several mornings a week to actually get out and practice in preparation for seven weeks at Beaver Creek. Can anybody recommend a generic program on the carvers, or is it as 'simple' as just working through all of the Essentials separately and then gradually bringing it all together as though I was practicing on the hill? I am a black level skier and am quite familiar with PMTS. At some point, or from the start, would it just be better to work on the areas that need the most improvement?

2) I have the first two books and DVDs, Skiflex, and the Essentials. I have read the instructor's manual a couple of times, and will be buying the Essentials DVDs at some point. Harald clearly updates and tweaks the system, in fact, although I have never been lucky enough to ski with Harald, I have had the distinct pleasure of skiing with an excellent PMTS instructor a couple of times and he was telling me about some very specific high end tweaks that Harald was mucking around with last season. The point: when I got the first two books I was under the impression that if you wanted 'further info' that the Instructor's manual was the way to go. As the system has been tweaked over the years, is this still the same? Is there an updated Instructors Manual? Or, are all of the exercises in both the essentials book + the extra exercises in the DVDs?

Any clarification would be appreciated.
Last edited by porthacking on Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby Max_501 » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:17 pm

I'd suggest getting the Essential's DVDs sooner rather than later. There isn't anything in particular that I can think of that isn't in the books and DVDs.

Some good Carver info here: http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic ... 51&p=20627
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby porthacking » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:39 am

Thanks for getting back to me. I will have a look at that post.

As for the 'movements' question: so is there no one definitive place where PMTS is written down, rather, the Essentials including the DVDs have all the drills and exercises needed?
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby Max_501 » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:01 am

porthacking wrote:As for the 'movements' question: so is there no one definitive place where PMTS is written down, rather, the Essentials including the DVDs have all the drills and exercises needed?


The complete work is all the books/DVDS and writings on this website.
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby porthacking » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:40 am

That's what I thought. I don't imagine that continually updating one 'Manual' is at all feasible. As well all know, the website, all his books, etc cover everything.

I know things have been added, emphases changed, but has anything been removed from the system over the years; or is it more a matter of refinement?
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby Max_501 » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:35 am

porthacking wrote:I know things have been added, emphases changed, but has anything been removed from the system over the years; or is it more a matter of refinement?


Can you elaborate on what has been added and what emphasis has changed?

I'm not aware of anything that has been removed.
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby porthacking » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:13 pm

Rather than cause any disagreements, I should clarify that I am a professional teacher (although in a very different field) and share Harald's philosophy and approach to teaching. I do not wish to detract from any of the books, only to clarify what the "state of the art" is, and where it is. Is it in one place, or is spread across all the publications, all of the posts etc?

As for what has been added, Harald makes the comment in the Introduction to the Essentials that after lessons, students would ask him to write down what exercises they worked on etc etc and that this was part of the reason for writing the book. I understand that the book is not written as a linear progression like the previous books but I assumed that some drills might have been added, tweaked, removed, be made 'more important' or highlighted etc after seeing them in action for seven years since book 1 was published: ie "that was a good drill, but this one seems to get better results" etc. Furthermore, given Harald's pedagogical approach, I assumed that Harald would add anything to the system he thought would improve it, actually be beneficial, and is not just another exercise for the sake of it like CSIA and PSIA seem to do. I also know second-hand, through a PMTS instructor, that Harald had been mucking around/experimenting with some 'high end' skills in his own time (I imagine he is doing stuff like this all the time). From memory, unlike PSIA and CSIA, it wasn't some completely different and opposite skill that only the 'Level Fours' are allowed to use, but was an extension of the high-C and getting higher edge angles earlier. The instructor was telling me this, not to get me to try them (he didn't explain all the detail), but as first hand evidence of Harald's unrelenting quest to explore and improve the system, try new things etc.: the ultimate compliment! Harald's money, really is where his mouth is! Surely this is one of the reasons PMTS is so good. If it turned out that any of these skills were beneficial, even if they would only be beneficial for a 'racer' or someone who already skis at an extremely high level (and therefore probably not published in a book for all skiers), are they written down anywhere? Is there such a thing as PMTS R&D for instance?

If there was such a thing as PMTS R&D, I don't imagine that any new things (or highly advanced, specific drills) should be published, lest it complicate the elegance of PMTS, but surely for instance, something like this would be available to PMTS Instructors. For instance, when I am teaching my students, like Harald, I have a set of essential skills that I feel all students must learn, and be taught in a specific way (with some inbuilt variation depending on the student). My set of skills is different to many other teachers in my field (mainly in where I place the emphasis, and that it is so much more specific), and I feel that I get better results with my system. I had 6 other teachers working for me directly and each year we are responsible for several hundred students on a one-on-one basis and over a thousand when you include group instruction. All the teachers were taught my method, and as a condition of employment had to present my program to the students. We always had wonderful results, excellent word of mouth, and unfortunately were so busy that we had to relegate some students to a waiting list. Despite the fact that all the students got coherent and easy to follow instruction, among the teachers we would often discuss high-end techniques that would improve OUR ability (instructor training). We weren't doing anything different to what we gave the students, only taking it to a much higher level (cf. not just by taking the movements to a steeper slope, or more chopped up powder, but by actually augmenting a movement in these conditions). We seldom told a student about these, extra-techniques, but they informed a much deeper understanding of the fundamental techniques for us, that it improved our teaching and results for the student. For some students (very few), although they were not advanced enough to be bothering with this little extra tweak on the top, they wanted to know about it. By explaining (and demonstrating) it to them they gained a deeper understanding of the simpler version and improved. Anything like this that we developed we kept records of. If it was successful, we added it to the syllabus (although very few students would actually need it) with specific explanations about how and when it should be used. If it wasn't successful, we had a "Dud Book", where we kept notes about why it might not have worked, or might not have been successful etc.

As for 'emphases changed'; this is clearly the case with the books, Harald makes the point in the Intro to the Essentials that he was using an innovative and fresh approach to present the PMTS system, by moving away from the linear progression he used in the earlier books and presenting them as the salient PMTS skills. He also makes a comment about how each book was written for a certain audience and with a specific purpose in mind. My question then, assuming the Harald is always critiquing his own skiing, and presumably 'researching' the system or thinking about it frequently, is the different emphasis in the Essentials (separate skills vs. linear approach) indicative of the PMTS system as a whole? Surely the system or how it is presented to students has been modified, improved, tweaked, etc over the years. And if it has, I imagine that these modifications/improvements/change of emphases are passed on to all new and 'updating'/'re accrediting' instructors so that all students get the absolute best instruction, rather than out-dated ideas (once again, isn't this one of the reasons that PMTS is so good and sets it apart from the PSIA and CSIA?). This is why I wondered if there was an updated instructors manual, or some type of 'master document' that represents the "state of the art" for PMTS?

I hope my point is a little clearer.
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby Max_501 » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:25 pm

I think the best way to master PMTS is starting with ACBAES Book 1-DVD 1, moving to ACBAES Book 2-DVD 2/Essentials book-DVD (I view ACBAES Book 2 and Essentials as complimentary, with Essentials providing additional detail on learning the Essentials). And if you want lots of detail, are teaching others, or are interested in accreditation then get the Instructors Manual too.

I can't think of anything that isn't in the books/DVDs/this website but I'll give it some thought.
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby carver_hk » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:09 pm

porthacking wrote:I am a black level skier and am quite familiar with PMTS. At some point, or from the start, would it just be better to work on the areas that need the most improvement?
On first read I though you mean you were PMTS black level skier. It seems you are not. I would say just get all PMTS books and DVD, study as advised by Max and put up your vid for MA. PMTS have well defined definition on each essential and specific requirements for drills like Two Footed Release and PMTS Javelin. So you have nothing to lose if the experts here offer you some advise based on your current skiing from PMTS perspective. :D
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby porthacking » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:33 am

Max_501 wrote:I think the best way to master PMTS is starting with ACBAES Book 1-DVD 1, moving to ACBAES Book 2-DVD 2/Essentials book-DVD (I view ACBAES Book 2 and Essentials as complimentary, with Essentials providing additional detail on learning the Essentials). And if you want lots of detail, are teaching others, or are interested in accreditation then get the Instructors Manual too.

I can't think of anything that isn't in the books/DVDs/this website but I'll give it some thought.



I figured that working through all of the books would be the best way, and I agree that Essentials and Book Two go together very nicely.

I doubt there really is anything that isn't in the book/DVDs/website etc., but do you see what I mean about an 'updated' instructors manual or other document that has everything in one place. It is a subtle point and so quite hard to describe on a forum like this, I think it would be much easier if we were discussing this face to face. I know Harald is extremely busy so it isn't really feasible to be developing a new manual each year, and I doubt that enough would really change to warrant a new one every year. Also, printing costs etc for updates would also not be feasible. Do you know if he has ever considered say an E-Document of sorts. This would be much easier to update every few years, wouldn't require any publishers, printing, inventory, or shipping, just a pdf writer and online store (which I see is now included more formally on his website)...I guess the summary is that I want to do the accreditation so I can get more info about the specific approach to teaching PMTS.

I have actually been trying get accredited for several years, but can never get to the US when Harald is running sessions (accreditation or camps) and privates were always out of my budget. To remedy this, I actually booked in for my CSIA Levels 1 and 2 so I could get a work visa, and then come over to the US for my 3 month break and make sure I am around when he runs the accreditation sessions. I am afraid though that the experience was so bad, that after completing the level 1 I canceled the Level 2. I am hoping I'll be able to get to an accreditation this year, but I don't think it will be possible. Having experienced CSIA from an instructors point of view (I learnt PMTS before I did the CSIA course), I can say that is was EXACTLY as Harald has said a million times before. They ski differently to what they preach, when I politely pointed this out, they didn't have an answer. They are remarkably vague about what it is they are doing, they were hopelessly misinformed about how the body works, and it showed. After our 'demo' ski the instruction started. They made us ski a couple of hundred metres down a steep, narrow'ish (three cat tracks wide) black hard packed groomer (it was long enough to get the legs burning and the heart racing). I did what I thought was nice PMTS short radius turns (not without fault though) within one cat-track. I was in balance, my speed was controlled, and I had a quiet upper body with a reasonable pole plant. Yet, the first thing they told me: "Your stance is not wide enough, you will be more balanced with a wider stance". The next person to ski down wouldn't even get a PMTS Yellow,. She was messy, rotating like crazy, tail pushing, massive A-frame, HUGE stem, big toe all the way, traversing back and forth with a wide stance, and they told her that she was one of the most "in balance" out of the whole group!!! Harald would have had a heart attack. Anyway, it was just down hill from there. The more I pretended to do their crap, the worse I felt, the worse I got. It was quite literally, the worst week of skiing that I have ever had.

...continued in response to carver_hk
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby porthacking » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:42 am

carver_hk wrote:
porthacking wrote:On first read I though you mean you were PMTS black level skier. It seems you are not. I would say just get all PMTS books and DVD, study as advised by Max and put up your vid for MA. PMTS have well defined definition on each essential and specific requirements for drills like Two Footed Release and PMTS Javelin. So you have nothing to lose if the experts here offer you some advise based on your current skiing from PMTS perspective. :D


Carver_hk. I am a little confused; surely "I am a black level skier" was quite clear. The original point of the post was to get some advice on the most effective way to practice with Carvers (not having practiced on them before), and to see if anybody had devised a specific carver program. As I said in my previous post, I am quite familiar with PMTS and the progression, and was content to just work through exercises as I have been doing on the hill, but am always open to anybody's suggestions. As you said, there is nothing to lose if the experts here have something to suggest. With that in mind...

I don't think I have anything for MA. I have one clip from Jan 08. It is snowing heavily, was taken from a distance, and I have improved since then, so I am not sure how helpful it would be. You can still see me skiing though. I could put it up if you think it would help. It was also the last run (literally skiing in for the day) after a powder day and we hadn't intended to film it, so my legs were complete dead by this run as well. I might be able to dig out an older clip that shows some of the problems I have described below that might be useful (although I have fixed a few of the obvious problems since it was shot). Let me know what you think?

As for carving:
I used to roller-blade all the time when I was younger, and the pro-carvers (the biggest ones) are quite a bit slower than what I am used to having under my feet, so I am pretty comfortable with the speed, starting, stopping, dodging cars, etc. I went out the other day for a quick first go (without padding...), and I was able to tip and turn first go. So I don't think the 'safety adjustment period' will be too lengthy, although I will be going out to buy safety gear (we never really used anything when I was younger...I know all about road rash) in a few weeks.

Perhaps if I mention what I think I need to improve, someone could suggest some exercises.
Due to sickness a few years back, my left leg is quite a bit weaker than my right. I can minimise this with LOTS of weights and strength work, but otherwise it is obvious. When my left leg is the free foot side, I find it very difficult to tip the leg hard enough to match what is happening with my right leg, so sometimes I get an A-frame with the skis separating a little. I should point out that I don't try and match the free foot to what the downhill ski is doing, I am always thinking about tipping. This is more pronounced when I am trying to carve on steeper slopes and am moving faster. The sensation is strange. After I have released and get the upside down thing happening (ie. upper body further down the hill than my skis), I feel fine, but it is only towards the end of the turn that the separation occurs. It is towards this part of the turn that I find it much harder to tip the foot, and because I am trying so hard I think that it gets locked up so that I can't relax it and let it flex further, contributing to the A-frame. Then as I go to flex and relax the downhill ski to get to the next turn, the left leg (free foot) can't take the extra weight and so I lose some of the tipping and I get the separation (and A-Frame). It is very annoying. I will try and dig out the older footage mentioned above that demonstrates this. It isn't as clearly delineated in the footage as I have described here, but it is what I am feeling.

For the most part, I am reasonably sure that the primarily reason for the separation is not because I am driving the big toe of the downhill leg, but due to the relative weakness. (It feels similar to when similar things happen when I am exercising or doing strength exercises for it). It seems to happen after I am very actively trying to tip. It can happen on the other side, but generally it is unilateral, and often accompanied by 'fatigue'/weakness feelings in my left leg and glute when I am skiing. If it ever does happen on the other side, it is generally when I am trying to challenge myself on steeper terrain. My alignment should be pretty close as I have forever had shims changed and adjusted by PMTS instructors (although I might drop in to the store this year and get it checked). I am about 1.5 and 1.0 to correct 'knocked knee' (but I can't remember anymore).

Overall: More dynamic lower body. I do flex and relax to release, but I find that I have a tendency to release too late sometimes (especially when I am moving quickly or on steeper slopes) and so I lose some energy into the next turn.

Specifically:
More long-leg short when I am carving (inside leg flexion).
More counterbalance (especially when the left leg is free foot).
More tipping of the free foot (especially when the left leg is the free foot).

Goals for this season:
Dynamic short radius. My short radius is reasonably good, but I would like MUCH more energy going from one turn to the next (you know, like Harald does, HA!). I don't think my legs are active enough with these. It would be nice to be able to easily change the pace of the turns (you know when Harald goes from a 'normal' short radius, to the faster little ones, and then back again).
I then want to take this to the bumps. I hear Beaver Creek and Vail are blessed with bumps. I can ski close to fall line blue and black bumps, but it is no where near clean or precise enough. Fore/aft nightmares occur from time to time. Once again, I think I need more active flexion.

Carving. As a visual cue: hip near the ground on most turns. I feel as though I need stronger tipping! (Especially on the crappy leg).

I'll try and find that old footage.
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby milesb » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:14 am

Your problem could be a footbed/alignment issue. Or you may have a "rotary" boot.

If you haven't already, try to get to Harald's shop in Colorado.
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby porthacking » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:56 am

I use Speed Machine 14s, with a custom foam Nordica Liner.
Ski on Supershapes.
Footbeds were made by Scott Burns at a PMTS Camp in Fernie.
Alignment has been done by a few people. All agreed that I need to be canted out about 1-1.5 (to correct knocked knees). We spent a few weeks continually adjusting shims until it looked correct.

I have a low volume foot and have had lots of difficulties getting my boot to fit correctly. When my feet warm up, or after skiing for a few hours, I feel as though there is too much movement in my boots so I don't think that my boots/liner are quite right, or perhaps the footbed could be adjusted. I always find this to be hard too judge. I never know when it too much movement, or when isn't enough. I think I would like to change to a Doberman 130 with a custom liner and have my alignment re done (I'd probably need a 28.5 with a blown toe), but I'd be surprised if my current setup wasn't correct or close.

I will be dropping in to the shop.
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby BigE » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:37 am

Speedmachine is a HIGH volume boot.
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Re: Off-season carver program and 'Movements' clarification

Postby porthacking » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:11 am

You're telling me! (Actually I thought it was medium volume).

I fit for a 28.5, but my ankle and calves are so small that it is like a bucket. Originally they put me in a 26.5 and blew the toe (several times), the sides, the arch....still brought tears to my eyes every time I put them on.

Now I am in a 27.5 (they replaced the 26.5) that has had the tow blown (three times). I am still not overly happy with it, but after they did the custom liner, it is better. However, I don't think they filled the tongue enough because the plastic on the front of the tongue has not been completely filled with foam and so when I am skiing hard and flex the boot a lot, I get a horrible bruise. Much worse than the sensitivity some people get when they first get back in their boots. Also, I cannot keep the boots on all day; they must come off at lunch. I wish I was one of those lucky people that just puts them on, skis all day, and them takes them off.

(I am not really making this sound so good am I?)
I don't think new boots are in the budget for this year, but I probably should go and see the guys in the shop. Also, the current boots have only done 20 weeks of skiing. Just seems too early to replace them.

Does anybody know Harald's policy on difficult fits. After the purchase of the boot (probably plus a liner) is any boot adjustment included in the service, or does it cost extra?
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