Boot Fitting Methods

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Boot Fitting Methods

Postby MonsterMan » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:41 pm

On another thread, Max pointed us towards boot fitting materials for reducing volume, but what is available for stretching and grinding and otherwise modifying a boot?

Those of us who are not close to Dumont and don't trust our local boot fitters need an option to do some of the work ourselves.

And why should those of us with wide feet have to use boots with a soft forward flex and not get to feel where our leg is in the boot like Harald?

Why the secrecy? how do you grind a boot?

How do you move a rivet/pivot point? (for those scammed by the Tecnica salesperson).

How do you increase/decrease boot stiffness?

What I am talking about is amateur stuff where we can spend the time tweaking. It's not for everyone, but for those of us who like to tinker and learn, what can we do? Even the most dedicated pro isn't going to want to spend more than a few hours with me. We'd both get bored. So how about some ideas people?
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Re: Boot Fitting Methods

Postby Kiwi » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:03 am

Monsterman

Welcome to the nightmare.

This does not answer your question but you may find it interesting. These ideas may be complete rubbish. I am no boot fitter or have any experience or training. I expect I will have the errors of my ways pointed out.

Harald and Diana did my wife's boots and alignment. The fit is so good she keeps these boots with her on the plane etc. I, on the other hand, will be going to Dumont next year.

In the interim dealing with boot fitters has forced me to experiment. I know there are great boot fitters but I haven't found one in NZ and unfortunately I cannot drive to Dumont.

I have a wide, across the Metatarsals, high volume foot (thick ankles) with a narrow heal, politely referred to as strong feet, they could be more flexible which is something I now constantly work on.

As for the arch I read what Harald wrote in ACBAES 1 and think I might be more flat footed than is at first apparent. I have learned my feet and their fit in a boot is very deceptive. After my experience with Head I can say that there are definitely boots that work for you. Others do nothing positive and some work against you.

I went through the typical — you have wide feet so you need a wide fitting boot. I've concluded that is too general and if you hear this run. Feet seem wide in places and narrow in others. A good boot fitter I imagine is able to select a boot for the narrow parts of the foot and adjust quite a lot for the wide areas by stretching etc. Everyone knows this but I found it can not be this simple.

My experience with the generic wide boot suggests you get a flex of about 100 and a fit that is way too large when the overly thick liners inevitably pack out. This is definitely not the way to go. I did and ended up skiing so badly I could just about blame the boots.

If you try Atomics be warned that their sizing doesn't go to halfs they just have thick and thin liners to fill the range, Jay explained this to me when he told me my boots were a size and a bit too large. Hope I got this right. Bored yet? just grab another tinnie.

In frustration, with "wide boots" I went to two reputable boot shops in NZ and got a set of foot beds made by each. They are so different you wouldn't believe they came from the same foot. Worse both are two rigid as HH explains in ACBAES 1.

After beating myself up and hurting my left foot I took Harald's advise on the forum (yeah so I am a little slow) and went and bought the SS Raptor from Head, slightly wider than their more advanced boots and only 110 flex but not a "wide boot". It does have a comfort liner, thicker than the high spec boot. Still they are a size and a half smaller than what the other boots the boot fitter sold me,..jeesuz; and I thought the devil was in the detail ( not to criticise Satan) . With a little bit of work on the edge, not much, they felt fine even with the best of the bad foot beds in and I skied way better. I know this through video and because even Nugget said so and he and I never lie or exaggerate. Everyone knows the All Blacks are the best rugby team in the World.

Well I thought I would ski the boots without any base canting. Straight away I saw my right foot pronating inward to much while my left was good. It took good fitting boots to figure this out and I did it all by myself, hmm. I haven't addressed the base canting yet, I will dial this in shortly. However it led me to discovering a slight rotation in the pelvis I am now working on. I really need to go to Dumont. Although its a whole new story, it is correctable and finding it is actually a blessing.

I recalled at this time that Steinmark, I think, had "strong feet" and didn't use foot beds so I took them out of the Raptors. Well stone the crows I skied better. Even more surprising the boots may actually be a little to big in volume without the foot bed!! I can still ski all day in comfort. So I'm going to try the higher spec Raptor and really thin socks. I was told I had typical Kiwi feet and would never fit a top end boot now I question this.

My conclusions:
A foot bed can distort the whole 'foot to boot relationship' both in terms of volume and width. Getting the foot beds right is No.1 otherwise do without them if you can. I would definitely get to a Harb Alignment specialist to make the foot bed.
Get the stiffest highest spec boot you can, just watch the forward cuff angle is not to great and have ankle movement in the boot in order to pressure the boot. HH has discussed this on the forum and in ACBAES 1. I am not convinced these new bi moulded plastic boots are as good as a boot constructed out of one plastic.

Boot volume may be the most important measurement after length of fit.
Make sure the narrow part of the foot ( the heel ) fits, then the space around the front of the ankle and top of the foot before considering if you can fix any pressure points width wise. I have come to be weary of packing the lining to get a firmer fit around narrow areas of the foot.

I would sand a couple of mm off the rear of the zappa board if I needed more volume around the ankle and top of the foot.
I did not realise how small the adjustments can be to actually make functional changes.

I would get the toe box ground out or punched if I felt uncomfortable around the toes.

Heating then stretching or punching seems common place and although I could practise with a heat gun and expander I do not have experience with the heating and cooling properties of plastics and boots are expensive.

To conclude I still do not know much about boot fitting but I do have better boots than I did.
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Re: Boot Fitting Methods

Postby Sidney » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:25 am

You definately need some decent tools, otherwise you're very limited to what you can do. At the very least you'll need a boot spreader of some sort and a dremel (with varying heads, shapes/sizes/smooth/rough) is definately required to do any kind of grinding in the forefoot area. You obviously need to know how much or little to grind and in exactly what area, too much and you can punch through a boot or make too much room which moves the foot and that can cause more problems. A steady hand certainly helps. Chris, Diana and HH are obviously masters at this.

Reducing the flex of a boot is possible by cutting parts off the upper part of the lower cuff. From memory some of the new Nordica/Head boots have a dotted line indicating where to cut. With increasing the boot fitness, depending on the boot, screws can be added to the back plate but I think Harald proved that on the Head raptor boots this didnt really have any effect.

Without half decent tools it's pretty damn hard to do anything, not being able to spread a boot and get your hands in there makes it virtually impossible. I guess if you want to make any mods around the ankle and cuff area it's not so bad (can even go at it with sandpaper), but the toe box and forefoot is another story.
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The Right boot Rules

Postby h.harb » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:29 pm

Hold someone's hand loosely, have them twist the hand in your grip. If they can twist the hand you are holding too loosely. Now grip the hand tightly, is it able to twist in your hand No!? But the hand doesn't hurt while being held. Most ski boots are fit so the foot can twist in the boot. Maybe not when you buy it, but surely after three weeks of skiing.

Follow and know these rules with boots:

Most footbeds are trash and hurt your skiing and they aren't that comfortable.
Not to mention they are expensive. Our footbeds are guaranteed to help you ski better and they are comfortable. We have made over 3000 footbeds, not one return yet.

We tell you if you don't need a foot bed. If you don't, we just put in a $35 nice comfort sole.

Remember:
Most skiers are in the wrong size, width and model boot.
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Re: Boot Fitting Methods

Postby tdk6 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:54 pm

HH, do you have any experiance with making a foam linear for a Doberman 130 Pro? Also, If the Dobie is a pritty good fit will a Head boot fit as well?
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Re: Boot Fitting Methods

Postby trtaylor » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:22 pm

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Re: The Right boot Rules

Postby Marek » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:57 pm

h.harb wrote:Remember:
Most skiers are in the wrong size boot.

Oh yes, on our slopes 90% skiers wear boots way too large !
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Re: Boot Fitting Methods

Postby BobsledBob » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:48 pm

I'd really like to hear recommendations regarding boot fitters in New England. My boots are getting pretty packed out and I know I need to either buy new or at least get new liners. I have custom footbeds but they are stiff and I'd bet a PMTS fitter would burn them. I know I need to do something before next year but I have no idea who to trust. Visiting CO definitely was not a viable option this winter. It might not be next year. Our work schedules dictate when we can take time off and we're helping to care for an elderly parent. So who can I go to in New England?
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Re: Boot Fitting Methods

Postby trtaylor » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:52 pm

BobsledBob wrote:I'd really like to hear recommendations regarding boot fitters in New England. My boots are getting pretty packed out and I know I need to either buy new or at least get new liners. I have custom footbeds but they are stiff and I'd bet a PMTS fitter would burn them. I know I need to do something before next year but I have no idea who to trust. Visiting CO definitely was not a viable option this winter. It might not be next year. Our work schedules dictate when we can take time off and we're helping to care for an elderly parent. So who can I go to in New England?

Call the Sport Thoma shop at the base of Waterville Valley in NH. Ask to speak with Glen. He is a trained PMTS fitter.
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Re: Boot Fitting Methods

Postby Bolter » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:17 pm

trtaylor wrote:Call the Sport Thoma shop at the base of Waterville Valley in NH. Ask to speak with Glen. He is a trained PMTS fitter.


Glen is the best I have seen. He knows more about boots than anyone I have ever met. His work is first rate.
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Re: Boot Fitting Methods

Postby MonsterMan » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:11 pm

If I have a 100mm wide foot, does that mean that the narrowest head last I can use is an N100FCS? My current boots must be sloppy old c104's. Does this mean that the Raptors, even in the 120 Flex will not be an option? or is there enough "meat" in these high end shells to grind this much width out?

What does the 1800 refer to in the RS1800CC last? it can't be cubic centimeters as this would surely vary with foot length?

Thanks for all of the great responses. Those links are very educational trtaylor. Kiwi, that post was incredibly well written for an All Black's supporter, you must have sent all the ratbags over here to the Gold Coast. It sounds like you went to a good school and would never boo when the opposition is kicking for goal!

I was particularly interested to read about grinding a bit of length off the base-board, what a neat way to increase volume for the instep.

Thanks again,

Geoff
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Re: Boot Fitting Methods

Postby trtaylor » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:36 am

MonsterMan wrote:If I have a 100mm wide foot, does that mean that the narrowest head last I can use is an N100FCS? My current boots must be sloppy old c104's. Does this mean that the Raptors, even in the 120 Flex will not be an option? or is there enough "meat" in these high end shells to grind this much width out?

Thanks again,

Geoff

You'd have no trouble being fit into a 98mm last boot, such as the Raptor or Dobermann. These boots have thick enough plastic to allow significant grinding, as well as punching.
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Re: Boot Fitting Methods

Postby tdk6 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:55 am

trtaylor wrote:
MonsterMan wrote:If I have a 100mm wide foot, does that mean that the narrowest head last I can use is an N100FCS? My current boots must be sloppy old c104's. Does this mean that the Raptors, even in the 120 Flex will not be an option? or is there enough "meat" in these high end shells to grind this much width out?

Thanks again,

Geoff

You'd have no trouble being fit into a 98mm last boot, such as the Raptor or Dobermann. These boots have thick enough plastic to allow significant grinding, as well as punching.

In our part of the world its all punching. No grinding. What is the difference?
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Re: Boot Fitting Methods

Postby trtaylor » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:10 am

tdk6 wrote:In our part of the world its all punching. No grinding. What is the difference?

From what I observe, mostly personal preference of the particular boot fitter. Note, I am not one.

Some punch first, then grind if necessary. Some grind right away, as they feel a punch can move. Some grind in certain areas of the boot (heel,ankle) and punch in others (forefoot, toebox).
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Re: Boot Fitting Methods

Postby MonsterMan » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:18 pm

What "dremel" bits would be useful in grinding a shell? Would a flexible extension chuck be necessary to work in the toe-box with the cuff stretched open?

It seems to me that a bit of grinding would be better than heating and stretching because of the "memory" of the polymer, or is this stuff truly thermoplastic?
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