Counterbalance vs. Counteract

[horst]

I've been reading the Essentials book, but am having trouble understanding the difference between those two terms... if there's an existing thread, I'd appreciate you pointing me in the right direction.

[MonsterMan]

For an excellent overview, read pages 12 to 19 again.

[grambo]

The way I understand it is counterbalance refers to a break at the hip without turning the upper body/shoulders. Counteraction refers to turning the upper body. In relation to the turn in skiing, it is a turning of the upper body towards the outside of the turn. A turn of the upper body towards the inside of the turn is referred to as rotation. I guess you could argue that it is the hips that are turning to face the inside/outside, but the upper body will turn with them.

[John Mason]

Counterbalance - edging produced by the 'c' shape you put your body in mainly by a 'side crunch' of your abdominals.

Counteracting - pointing the hips outside the turn - see where your belly button is pointing
example - in a turn to the right, your belly button should be pointing to the left.

You can play with both of these while tipping the feet. See how much you can get while standing in a balanced position.

If you don't actively tip the feet, particullarly counter acting is hard to do.

Playing with extremes of Counterbalance and Counteracting allow for fun edge angles on cat tracks. Most people rely on 'implied edging' that they get with inclination or towards the bottom of the turn where simply standing on the skis will give you an edge. Towards the bottom of the turn where many people are getting their implied edging is where we are well into our release actively beginning the phantom move and enjoying our float phase.

The reason counteracting is so important is as you tip the feet, the femur will rotate in the direction of the new turn. This creates a rotary torque that can easily break your carve. (or if you want it you can use it to do hocky stops - etc) To conteract this rotary torque created by feet tipping, countering the hips to point outside the turn allows your tipping action to create pure non-directional edging which is what you want for a clean carve.

I like to warm up stationary in the boots and skis and tip as far as I can by combining counteracting and counter on top of the primary of foot tipping. I do this back and forth many times with as much tipping as I can. You'll find you are nuetral when your body is straight ahead. But as you tip progressivly more to the right and point your belly button more progressively to the left while side crunching your left side, you can get more and more angles. Then reverse the above and go the other way as far as you can. Be relaxed and see how far you can get this movement. Be aware of how smoothly this movement and edging goes from flat to max one way then back to flat and max the other way. Edinging changes like than in real turns too. It's not all on and all off, but a smooth progressive movement.

You can also experience the edgng strong counter balance gives you by the boot touch drill. Also, the more stance ski your balance is the more you'll find you are counterbalanced automatcially.

[h.harb]

The focus should be totally with the hips in C acting. Also the hips should remain level, not just turned. The inside hip should feel like it is higher. The higher it is, the more the pelvis looks level. Keeping the outside hip back and lower creates the great relationship, and edge hold.

[grambo]

I'm guessing the topics been touched on before, but in my reading I'm still unclear as to why it appears that wc racers use more inclination than cb? Is this some kind of optical illusion? I've seen pictures where their shoulders appear to be inclined throughout the turn except for transition. Here's one of many examples...http://youcanski.com/photo/vogl_1a_lg.jpg

[MonsterMan]

Look at frame one in the montage, that is maximum counterbalance. Pure inclination would have a straight spine.

[grambo]

I see it, but what about the rest of the frames? I don't see much CB, especially at the beginning to middle of the turn. I thought CB is supposed to be applied right from the beginning to assist tipping?

[h.harb]

If you have it (CB) you don't need it. If you don't have it, you need it, and you better learn it. If you have it in spades, you might try to make turns like that without it. You won't get to step one of a WC turn if you don't Cb first.

If you have never been in this situation you don't know what I mean. It's just on of those things you have to experience to know how important it is. That's why so many ski instructors don't know how to teach skiers, they think inclination is OK..

They don't know what it takes for a WC turn. If you don't learn it; you'll never make it there, and if you make it there, you can decide when you need CB and when you can get away with less, except Bode. Trust me 99 percent of skiers can't get away with less if they want to improve.

[h.harb]

When I say they can get away with less, it's only in certain parts of the arc. And that's only true becasue they generate so much energy, energy than 99 percent of skiers will never know. They actually use more CB than regular skiers in the loaded phases of the arc.

Even Bodie CB and CAed.

[grambo]

CB was my main focus towards the end of last season, so I've begun to understand it's importance...especially to maintain edge hold of the outside ski in the second half of the turn. I was just curious as to its role at the top of the turn since that's where I see less of it with the wc racers.

Did you catch the men's slalom in Val D'Isere? Very icey run with lots of ruts...many skiers lost edge hold on the outside ski, including Bode. Seemed like they were trying to get away with inclining a lot, but it wasn't the conditions for it. They got too far inside and slid out.

[h.harb]

Hey it must be 2 am back east what are you guys doing up? Can't sleep, PMTS forum more fun than the girl friend. What time is it in OZZ?

[h.harb]

You can't get away with cheating CB on ice or steep for long, it will bite. I saw the Val race it wasn't pretty. In fact I've raced there.

[grambo]

Seems like CB is used more in GS than SL...greater forces from greater speeds perhaps necessitate more CB.

Hey it must be 2 am back east what are you guys doing up? Can't sleep, PMTS forum more fun than the girl friend. What time is it in OZZ?

My wife is highly annoyed right now that I'm on here and she's packing to leave in the morning for 5 days. NYC...it's the city that never sleeps! Good for me being a night owl. Most people don't start work till 10am. Not good for skiing though...I turn into a weekend coffee drinker cause it's hard to get up early.

You can't get away with cheating CB on ice or steep for long, it will bit. I saw the Val race it wasn't pretty. In fact I've raced there.

Looked like a difficult course, to say the least. Sounds like it's got that reputation. Skiing the world cup must have been an INCREDIBLE experience. Haven't skied in Europe yet, but lookin forward to it. Had a friend that skied the wc for a bit...think he was on the B team. Great slalom skier named Josh Transue. I think his brother's a downhiller on the B team now. Anyway, it always drove me nuts skiing with him...he made it look so easy. Very inspiring though.

Anyway, I'll sign off for now. Many thanks for the feedback...greatly appreciated as always.

-Jay

[horst]

Thanks for the feedback.