Long out side leg? How?

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Long out side leg? How?

Postby h.harb » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:16 pm

Image

I clipped this from a video run out of the Essentials, Upper Body DVD. The outside leg got long, but not by extending, by flexing the inside leg. Look at the thigh angle of the inside leg, as it changes and the hip drops inside.
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby HeluvaSkier » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:24 pm

What did the transition of that turn look like?
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby grambo » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:24 pm

I understand the concept here, but if you back up to the position of being neutral when both legs are flexed equally, i'm lost. Does one leg start to flex even more? I thought in neutral the legs are flexed fully, so does one leg extend and the other flex more?
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby MonsterMan » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:29 pm

I think you are askin g the same thing I did a while ago.

http://pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1752&p=16842&hilit=+transition#p16842

Hope this helps.

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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby h.harb » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:48 pm

I get it now, you are asking if the new inside leg is flexed in the release and through transition; how can it flex even further for the rest of the arc? Well it does, first in transition even when I exaggerate; the amount of flex, I rarely flex to full ninety or with the thighs parallel to the surface.

And if I do, I still need to flex more, as when the inside leg has to tip to the new little toe edge, it has to flex more to get to the tipping angle. Tipping to the little toe has to include more flexing then what happened in the transition and the float. Notice in the photos how my thigh is almost parallel to the snow in the upper third, but it gets to below ninety in the most tipped part of the arc. This is necessary to get the ski an dboot over, so the boot and ski can get to a higher angle before the outside ski comes to it’s new angle.

Hope this helps, I’ll look for the transition photos and post them if possible.
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby h.harb » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:22 pm

Image

This is about as low as I go in the transition. This is steep and very hard snow. Although the inside knee doesn't look like it's flexing much more than in transition, I can tell you there is lots of emphasis on bending while tipping it out to the little toe. IF IT DIDN'T, THE ANGULATION OR ANGLES CREATED, WOULD BE ALL WITH THE BIG TOE EDGE AND OUTSIDE KNEE DRIVE.

SORRY NEED TO RESIZE THAT PHOTO
Image

THIS IS A MORE NORMAL AMOUNT OF FLEXING OR BENDING FOR A TRANSITION.
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby grambo » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:49 pm

h.harb wrote:Although the inside knee doesn't look like it's flexing much more than in transition


It looks to me like it's bending less than in transition...especially if you compare frames 1 and 2. Am I looking at the wrong thing?
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby h.harb » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:52 pm

Not really look at the tip of the knee. In the last frame it's higher than my hip and my hip is lower than the knee. In the first frame my hip is higher than the knee. When you are already at almost ninety in transition, that's a lot of additional flexing.

Try it, you'll see what I mean!
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby grambo » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:02 am

Thanks Harald, I see what you're saying. Especially with the second photo being a more normal amount of flexing...definitely room to flex more there. Gonna try it this weekend...maybe get some video too!
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby HeluvaSkier » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:33 am

I see where you're going with this. I think its probably a visual for someone who is having a hard time getting their tipping and extending timed properly. The important point to make (I think) is that this doesn't mean an extended leg in transition. Admittedly that is why I asked what the transition looked like because I thought you had come off your rocker for a minute and advocated an extended transition! :shock: Not the case at all. This ties in very nicely with the tipping thread you started a few days ago.

To whom are you addressing this thread?
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby ChrisSSBB » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:15 am

Does limited dorsiflexion inhibit the amount the inside leg can be flexed while keeping the inside foot pulled back underneath the hips?
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby h.harb » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:55 am

Yes, for full range of inside leg tipping to occur, especially needed in the types of turns shown here, you need to keep that foot back.
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby HeluvaSkier » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:24 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote:
To whom are you addressing this thread?
HH


I addressed that to you. When I first read the thread and only saw the "post transition" frames I wasn't getting the "full picture" and wanted to make sure you were still talking about a flexed transition. I couldn't imagine that the transition would have been an extension - but I wanted to clarify so I didn't misunderstand what you were pointing out. If the transition was an extension I was going to be entirely confused...

Back to the relation to tipping and extending the outside leg without pushing off; I suppose this aids in enhancing both - yes?
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby SkierSynergy » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:49 pm

Rather than trying to judge angles and lengths in photos, let’s look at the issue conceptually. It’s really simple geometry. Sorry for the quality of the drawing, but I think it will work to make my point.

Image

Let’s start with position 1 with a certain amount of flex in leg A and B.
If one leaves foot A in the same position and foot B tips. The center of mass will want to move to position 2. If foot A stays in the same position on the ground, Leg A must get longer. Even if leg B stays at the same flex it will move up leg A.

If the tipping is accompanied by increased flexion in leg B the center of mass moves faster and father, the leg lengthens faster and more, and leg B increases vertical separation even more.

Will pressure increase on the stance leg? Absolutely? Was it because the skier PUSHED on leg A, extending it and moving the center of mass? NO.

Pressure increased because tipping decreased the radius of the turn. Luckily because leg A is straighter, more of the pressure can be taken by the skeletal system and not the muscles.

An important point for some people is the following. If leg A is held back from lengthening during tipping, the center of mass will not move as effectively and most of the force will have to be taken by the muscles.

I often hear people talking about pushing the legs out to the side to create angles. As you can now see, tis is a misinterpretation of what is going on. Create angles by tipping and free leg flexing to bring the CM inside.

With active tipping (and free leg flexing), the body wants to move into the turn. 1) There will not be any need to push it there or push the stance leg out and away. 2) Also, don’t actively hold it back by holding the stance leg flexed. Relax and allow the leg to lengthen out.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Long out side leg? How?

Postby h.harb » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:22 pm

I have never advocated extension (I advocate letting the leg get long through other movements) in any forum, that's why I as surprised about the question, in fact, I am on record as saying extension to either push to extend, or to push the body to the side or to get a long leg or raise the body, doesn't have a place in modern skiing.

If you look at Riech's run closely (without PSIA glasses on) there is no form of extension what so ever in her skiing.
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