PMTS should be accepted much wider.

[Mr. M]

Hi all,

I am 55 and this is my third season skiing (15 + 40 + 85 days). PMTS (at least basics) is so easy to pick up and it gets you going in the right direction so skiing is a real joy.

Look at my skiing year?s day progression. First season I started curious at 15 days. My buddy taught me how to ski with the simple instructions: ?Turn your head, look and on your left and you?ll start turning left, then turn your head and look on your right and you?ll go to the right?. Sure, you can produce some pretty funny turns on a green slope by turning your upper body . I wasted two days on a ski lessons in Winter Park. Those lessons were a complete disappointment. You just have a feeling that you?ll stay with this group of losers for the rest of your life. I was so lucky that I went and bought HH book and the last 5 days in the season were my first PMTS practice. I started doing linked parallel turns on the first day! Next season I went through book 2 and I feel OK on any trail. Now I am squeezing every half day possible out of my schedule to go skiing. I wonder why such a powerful teaching system does not take the ski industry by the storm. Don?t the ski manufacturers understand that the person who skis 80+ days a year is buying at least one pair of top of the line skis every season? If I would be in their shoes I would advertise HH in every ski publication and would attach a small DVD with a simplified version of tape one video to every pair of skis sold! This logic goes the same route for the ski areas lodging, dining and ticketing as well. Now they know me by name in some ski area hotels and restaurants and the only reason I am there is HH books and PMTS system. If they provide a free bus service they should provide a free PMTS beginner video and lesson just to increase skier?s population and grow their business.

Maybe PMTS.org is too concentrated on educational efforts instead of promoting PMTS system to the industry. I guess what I am trying to say is that I am willing to ?lobby? on HH behalf before ski council organizations (Ski Colorado, Ski Utah, etc) and/or ski equipment manufacturers. Seriously, Harald, if you want me to I?ll draft a ?grassroots? type letter (I am not associated with PMTS.org ) and I am sure many people on this forum would be willing to sign it.

Regards,
Greg

[Bluey]

Hi Mr M,

From my point of view in Oz, I have to partially agree with you.

In Oz, we have only 2 PMTS qualified instructors to spread over the 3 states which have snow fields.
The resourses are too thin on the ground without some form of assisted marketing .......so Harald, why don't you hop on a plane next June 2004, when its summer in the Nthn Hemishere, and come on down skiing downunder in Oz.

You could stir up a heap of good publicity and change the profile of PMTS in Oz. It would also make for good publicity back in your hemisphere. Think globally. Think big. Think Australia.

I know HH's books and videos are great but most people are so jaded by the old Trad. Teaching Systems/methods and Learn-to Ski videos that they are wary to buy HH's videos and books. It will take time to overcome this. The proof of PMTS is the quick results it gets. The trick is, I think, to be able to demonstate this aspect.....people are wary of new systems that seem to promise quick results....its understandable.
However, I think Harald presence in Oz would generate, at a minimum, a lot of good word of mouth publicity which is a great asset in ski marketing. The internet would spread the word quickly.....its a powerful tool in the hand of any small organisation that wants to take on the "giants" of the ski industry.

So go get 'em Mr M. !!!

[-- SCSA]

Hi guys,

PMTS rocks.

I see it all the time. Skiers, lost. I tell 'em all -- everyone I ride up -- about PMTS, HH and company. Each time I get off the lift, my only hope is that they remember what I told them and they follow thru. If they do, their skiing world will be the best.

With HH and co., skiing is taught at it's simplest element. Balance. It can't get much simpler.

Be cool,

[h.harb]

Gentlemen thank you for the support and the endorsements. I would personally love to have PMTS as the teaching system for most ski resorts, as I know skiing would take off.

I have tried in various ways to bring PMTS and demonstrate PMTS to ski schools and ski area managers, but with little success. Ski Area Management Magazine did an article last season about how great PMTS system worked. Every ski area manager in the country reads the publication. Do you think we got one call? No way, not even a call. So where does all this apathy come from? I ask you?

I know we could have tremendous interest from the public (we already do) if we advertised, but we couldn?t keep up the demand. We can hardly keep up with the demand right now.

Ski instructors are constantly complaining that they have poor wages and they can?t get enough work. We have plenty of work. My camps are so full I have to turn people away because I don?t have enough quality instructors. The whole ski industry would be re-invigorated if ski schools taught PMTS.

Until they see skiing numbers decrease further and until it becomes desperate, it won?t happen.

If ski schools were looking for a way to improve the ski lesson expereince they would have investigated and started using PMTS. We know PMTS is easier to teach and learn, it works faster and the results last.

It will happen one day, but it will take a long time.

[guest]

Classsic Harald ego quoted below. Harald may be a great skier, but he is certainly a lousy businessman. He expects customers to call HIM. Picking fights with PSIA is his primary form of Pulic Relations. He also claims he dosn't "have enough quality instructors". Isn't something wrong with Harald's training when the hundreds of people he has trained aren't good enough?!?


> [quote="h.harb"]..I would personally love to have PMTS as the
> teaching system for most ski resorts...
>
> ...Ski Area Management Magazine did an article last season about
> how great PMTS system worked. Every ski area manager in the
> country reads the publication. Do you think we got one call?...
>
> ...We can hardly keep up with the demand right now...I have to
> turn people away because I don?t have enough quality instructors...

[Mr. M]

You might be upset with Harald for whatever reason. I am trying to show my appreciation for his teaching system, which allowed me to learn so easily. His business methods might be not the best but I am not the one to judge. I just hope that by expressing my opinions and providing feedback I might help him to spread PMTS education to simple skiers like me. I hope other people would also come up with some creative ideas on this issue.

As I mentioned in my original post I am the outsider to the ski industry. I looked at PSIA message forum and see that some people are looking into PMTS, but unfortunately it?s a minority right now. I think PSIA is a large establishment, and it is typical for large companies / organizations to demonstrate inertia. I believe that PSIA is also a highly political organization and you got to be a good politician in order to get successful there. The ski teaching systems on the other hand have very little to do with politics and there should be a better way to get successful in defeating their inertia.

So let me suggest the alternative business approach. Books are great but you have to admit that most Americans would prefer to watch the instruction video, which is self-contained, and have no references to the book in order to get it right (on a simplified level). I am not a ski instructor, but I did teach few people skiing using HH method. They say that no books or videos compare to the lesson with a ski instructor. I have to disagree with this. In my opinion nothing compares to watching PMTS video footage and than a live lesson (this is of course is in the scope of the entry-level instructions). It saves so much time and effort since students know what to expect and what to look for in the lesson.

Look at the software industry where many companies (including a large ones like Adobe) have a business model in which they give away the entry-level product in order to sell the upgraded ?Pro-? versions and related services. Everybody can get the Adobe Acrobat Reader for free, but if you want to create the PDF documents you?ll buy their Writer software. I suggest to Harald to consider a similar approach. Make the Entry Level DVD free for download from Internet and sell Book 1, 2 and Book Videos plus services. Skiing is my hobby, but I?ll be happy to volunteer for such a fun project as making a self-contained entry-level Public Domain DVD.

[jclayton]

A reply to the anonymous guest above .

Ego is a pervading thing , obviously someone has had theirs severely dented to make such a vitriolic post .

Harald is a great skier , I skied with him last week . He also spent an entire day fitting me with new boots , measuring,aligning,testing and modifying . I even went back after a few days for further modifications . This is obviously " bad business " compared to most shops , e.g. Surefoot , who just want to get you into new boots , maybe a footbed and out after an hour at most . It is however a business that obviously gives him and the customers satisfaction . I travelled from Spain to get this service and it was worth every cent , over here you would have to be on a national team to get this service ( I do admit there may be someone who will do this but I have looked hard for 16 years ) . I also saw him and his team fit another person who had been to other places ( see above ) and had been sold boots and foot beds which he threw away after one day . He was a very difficult case but left satisfied in the end .

Clients call him , in any business personal recomendation always brings the best clients . He actually says he doesn't need to advertise to get Joe Public , what he wants to do ( again it seems pretty obvious to me ) is train top instructors as well as the "hundreds of Joe Publics " In order to disseminate the system . Out of how many hundred skiers comes one instructor ? Also I have not yet seen a report of anyone who had direct lessons in this system and complained of it not working .

Harald was himself a member of the P.S.I.A. demo team , i.e. one of the top ten skiers in the U.S. , so he could see things from inside . The system obviously doesn't work when you look around and see so many skiers pushing awkwardly from one ski to the other , instructors included .I would say his primary form of public relations are his books,videos and personal recommendations . Why should he sugar the pill to salve egos when he can back up his arguments .

The above mentioned "guest " post shows a remarkable lack of logic and good reasoning . Personally I don't believe in "gurus" ,I will try anything and will discard that which doesn't work . I don't put people on pedestals but appreciate hard and honest work with a comparative lack of "ego" . The PMTS system so far is by far the best I have seen or tried . Joy as experienced by Mr M is surely the aim of skiing not a stultified overintellectualization and resultant awkward style as experienced in so many posts on Epic Ski for example . Paralysis by analysis .

[-- SCSA]

I'll post a more detailed reply later, but who is the guest?

And who is he/she/it one to decry one's business? Hey guest. Don't bitch about someone else's business -- it's bad karma.

This guest is just some weasel who can't make a decent turn. I smell jealousy, too.

[-- SCSA]

And Guest,

The reason why HH doesn't have enough quality instructors is that maybe he has a hard time finding ski instructors that can actually ski and teach! Or maybe it's because there's this one trainer in the Rocky Mountain divsion that takes every possible opportunity, to rag on HH and company. Maybe that's why instructors aren't signing up?

There's a big difference, Guest, between passing a test and skiing. Maybe you can pass a test, and do drills all damn day. But can you really ski?

Get out of your doldrum, Mr. Guest. Wake up and start to ski, insteading of standing around all day watching the world go by. Or in your case, bitching and moaning all day.

[-- SCSA]

Yeah. All that nonsense on gapic ski. That's all it is -- a bunch of nonsense written by self proclaimed superstars.

At least over here, people can back up what they talk about. And people can learn over here, too.

[Mr. M]

Hi guys,

Let?s not let this thread go into bashing mode. This forum is not moderated, so we see some PSIA people looking into it . I would like to ask you all PMTS fans just to ignore those nasty comments please! I think it?s about time to educate customers about the quality of the services and usefulness of the PSIA schools ski lessons. I am not a certified instructor, neither am I a top level skier, but I can take a challenge of teaching Never/Ever skier who can stand on one feet in the parking lot a linked parallel turn in one hour or less (I did this few times already). This is what those PSIA people should be doing. Sorry, looks like I am bashing PSIA myself .

Would you rather be able to comment on the main topic? What do you think about this idea of getting a free ?self-contained? PMTS beginner video out? It should really be about publicity and customers asking them ?Do you have PMTS instructors in your school? If no, I want my money back. I?m sure when they hear the dollar bill talking to them they?ll change their mind.

[Mr. T]

I have witnessed a few recent episodes locally that tell me that PMTS is slowly penetrating if not in the way to teach at least the terminology used by PSIA.
I think there are at least a few reasons why PMTS is not as widespread as it should:

1. Harald set high standards for his instructors. This is good or else it will become like PSIA, but it is also bad for there are too few "apostles" to spread the "gospel". The problem I have with this is the following:
when I took PSIA-style instruction, I demanded, repeat demanded, a level III instructor. I paid good bucks for those hours and I wanted
the real deal. Even with PMTS, I want black level certified instructors or else, I am being honest, I would probably not want to take a class.
I know that I am probably wrong, but it is my bucks that change owner.


2. I received instruction from Harald, Rich Messer, and Diana. I am not
discussing who is the best skier of the three. Their teaching was excellent
and I am as fine with Rich as I am with Harald. However, I wonder if all the other PMTS fully certified instructors can really achieve the level of the
three I just mentioned. If they all do, I take off my hat, sorry my helmet,
to Harald and his movement. For sure PSIA does not achieve this standard, not even close. If they are not at the same level, then I am afraid that even PMTS will not provide the super-high-standard teaching they currently do once Harald, Diana and Rich are not involved and perhaps give away some of his mistique.

3. To be fully certified with Harald, you cannot come from the Midwest or
small resorts areas, you have to really live where the big mountains are. I cannot practice black mogul runs, leave alone expert runs. Now, if you
are no longer in college, and/or if you have a family, you need a job that
allows you to make a living. With PSIA I can get certified skiing during week-ends and studying at home in the evening keeping my day job. Unfortunately, I tend to think that numerically the majority of skiers do come from not so blessed areas in terms of terrain to practice.

4. PMTS is easy and it is not. Sure, most of us can work on volume 1 of
Harald's books and come out with a general idea. But are we really doing the right things all the time? This is not to say that it is not good, PSIA on
the other hand at times is plain ridicoulous. Even an intermediate skier can
understand that some of what he or she is being taught is no good. But,
I attended the Kicking Horse Camp last year. I thought I was using PMTS,
but Harald, Rich, and Diana kept correcting me. And the other guys in my
group were the same story. We even asked ourselves if we really had understood what PMTS is about. Sure, you see Rich, Harald, and Diana ski
and it all seems like in the book, but yet we could not achieve that standard. And here we come to volume 2, by far the best of the two. It is hard work to do on your own. You can have the idea, but how do you know you are mastering the subtlety of the methodology? You will not be
able to keep your boots closed together if you do not have certain muscles developed. Period. I have been working on powering those muscles and now I can keep my legs close even on a black run. It figures that last year I could not despite my best efforts. Technique is one thing,
but you need also the right strenght to perform. And I played football so I am not exactly a little weak man.
Those like me who ski in ice (not by choice, I actually hate it) most of
the time have a very hard time to practice. Have you ever tried practicing on a sheet of ice? If you live in Minnesota or Wisconsin or even in Michigan that's what you get a lot of the times. And I fear that out on the
East coast is not too different. We do not have the nice, abundant snow of
Colorado and Utah. We ski at -20F at times. There is not much to tip at those temperatures as all your body feels like a single block.
Do not get me wrong, I swear by PMTS (and even managed to get two PSIA instructors to buy copies of the books, DO I GET A PRIZE FOR THIS
HARALD?), but I do not believe that you can become an expert skier just
by reading books. You need muscles, technique, versatility and a lot of
mileage. Otherwise I watch downhill ski racing on TV, eat chips and salsa,
and then I am an expert and go out to ski.
Either there are a lot of us under the delusion they know PMTS well, or my group in Kicking Horse was one of the sorriest bunches ever seen on
a ski slope. They were a lot of fun actually and, PMTS or not, I hope to find them all in Big Sky next February.

5. Goals. What are each skier's goals? I want to ski double black diamonds
like they were second nature. I read the books 4 times and I also studied,
not read, studied, the Instructor Manual plenty of times. Am I skiing double black diamonds? Unfortunately not. Am I a bad student? Yes, perhaps I am, but not in the traditional sense of the term. If we had an exam on theory I bet I get an A. It is just that PMTS is the means, not the outcome. If I want to get on expert terrain and you keep me on blue runs,
I just lose motivation. If skiing is to stay on blue runs or some black runs,
then I go home toss skis and boots and do something else with my life and then good-bye PMTS and PSIA.

I don't believe that PMTS = Skiing double black diamonds after two days,
what I believe is that PMTS is an excellent methodology, arguably the best on the market. But I do not ski to achieve the PMTS, I do ski to have
fun and achieve the goals I set for myself. And there are times when neither the PSIA nor the PMTS can give that to you. Not in my timeframe
at least. And that is a problem.

[richk]

It seems that with PMTS huge improvements occur quickly as basic movements are introduced. However, to get to high levels of performance, precision is critical and that level of performance only occurs with strength, flexibility, balance, alignment, the right equipment, and practice at an obsessive level.

In addition, my personal goal has changed. The level of control I once only dreamed of attaining, I already have--but it just isn't good enough anymore! Now that I know what a controlled turn actually feels like, I want it all the time.

I spend lots of my skiing time working on drills and focusing on self-coaching --I have methods that are helpful so it is self-reinforcing. When the snow is good, achieving large vertical takes precedence. When the snow is only so-so, technique is the focus.

I've made huge progress in the last 3 years--more than in the 30 years before it--so I'm not complaining. Nonetheless, it sure is clear that refinements come, at least to this non-athletic person, only with perseverance. Yet without the techniques, it was never going to happen so even the idea that further improvement is possible is tantalizing.

[carv_lust]

I am a new participant on this forum, but I have been following Mr. Harb?s system and writings for some time. My sense is that he cares greatly about the state of ski instruction and is therefore willing to go it alone, disconnecting from the long established PSIA organization. He probably understands their program, quality levels and product as well as anyone and has therefore not endorsed it.

The guest writer deserves no recognition because he/she doesn?t have the courtesy or forthrightness to sign in with a name. The post by ?Guest? is obviously an attempt to provoke loyal PMTS followers and believers.

My impression of Mr. Harb?s business practices is that he has a very good business plan. His organization and instructors are first rate and they set not just a higher standard of ski instruction, but a new standard that the PSIA can?t possibly match. This is precisely why Mr. Harb states that he can?t find quality instructors, I believe in his response, where he says there are not enough quality instructors, he means instructors at the level he needs and uses. These instructors are not available from the PSIA ranks, unless they have accredited in the PMTS system. I have years of experience taking PSIA lessons. They did little to help or change my skiing.

The Harb PMTS instructors I have been in contact with can evaluate alignment on snow and indoors. They make the best footbeds in the industry. I have had many footbeds in the years I have participated in skiing. None have helped me ski better, until I had my present ones made and installed by Harb systems. I must agree with the previous posts. My experience with Harb boot fitting is beyond any I have encountered. They send hours if needed to fit the most difficult feet.

Mr. Harb?s ego is not in question. Everyone who is willing to risk and take chances in business and believes strongly in themselves has an ego. I have never seen where his ego has interfered with his communication with students or his work in alignment sessions.

It seems according to the ?Guest? that Mr. Harb is a bad business man because he evaluates PSIA?s quality of instruction as inadequate and has an ego because he stands behind his convictions. Please lead me to others who have egos like that.

[jclayton]

How about a reply from "guest " .

Harald has a lot of support ( obviously ) here but I for one am happy to hear any well reasoned and/or logical dissention .

There has been a lot of posts lately about the lack of improvement among skiers taking lessons on Epic ski . I wonder why??

Regarding the idea of wider dissemination of PMTS , how about some downloadable stuff from camps etc..