Wax - Race Related

[Max_501]

Has there been any research done to validate the need for expensive race waxes vs a very good universal type of wax for racing? Anyone have a guess as to how much time could be reduced by using the fancy stuff over a universal?

[h.harb]

It's much more important on wet snow or warm snow. Sera F is a must on flat courses in the spring. also the base pattern is huge. For cold snow, tight, fine base patterns, wet or spring warmer snow, course patterns. That's why they have so many skis.

[4Slide]

Is this a dad waxing racing kids' skis question or a general question? For kids it's still very important, but the suit is more important imo many times which is unfortunate in my view. For kids there are a couple overlay approaches which can keep the overall time and expense of waxing down, though. Also good to rememebr in their case that unless they regularly ski on their race skis that their training skis will generally actually be faster so long as they are in good shape -- base conditioning and development of whatever structure you go with are important.

But consider racing itself to be ongoing emperical research in this area.

[Max_501]

I'm looking for specifics. Does anyone know how much faster a ski prepped with the fancy race wax (matched to the correct snow temp) is when compared to a good universal wax? Are we talking tenths, hundredths, or thousandths of a sec faster for the average GS course?

[4Slide]

My advice would be to read up on waxes first to understand the variables at play. Fancy race wax is not synonymous with fluoro to begin with.

[Max_501]

My advice would be to read up on waxes first to understand the variables at play. Fancy race wax is not synonymous with fluoro to begin with.

Already done. And I've had extensive discussions with our local races shop. But I still can't find any numbers telling me what to expect by going with a race specific setup.

[4Slide]

There ain't one race-specific setup, but whatever. It depends.

[Max_501]

There ain't one race-specific setup, but whatever. It depends.

For a given race day there should be one idea setup. Now, if we compare that to a universal what is the best case expected reduction in time? I know the companies that sell race wax would like us to spend hundreds of dollars on the stuff, but before I do that I'm looking for real numbers so I know if its worth the investment.

[HeluvaSkier]

I have a theory on wax. It might not be popular, or a good theory in most people's eyes but here goes. I don't worry about wax. I have two main waxes in my wax arsenal... cold low fluoro and warm low fluoro. I have a small collection of temp specific low fluoros and hydrocarbons, but basically I prep with warm and finish off with a layer of cold. The reason I don't worry about wax is that there is A LOT I need to improve upon in my skiing before I need to start worrying about wax. If I want to shave time off my race runs I can do a lot more with improving my skiing than I can by guessing at the magical wax combination and structure for any given day. That is not to say that I don't admire your efforts, but I figure that until I can win the NY State masters series and ski well enough to be competitive at D1 Carnival Races (if I were able to enter them, still skiing at the collegiate level), wax is not what should be at the forefront of my racing concerns...

[4Slide]

If you're racing just for fun that's a totally legit approach. If you're really serious base prep and waxing are hugely important.

[Max_501]

If you're really serious base prep and waxing are hugely important.

But to what extent? How much time can be gained by this serious base prep? If there is a scientifically supported answer I haven't been able to find it.

[HeluvaSkier]

But to what extent? How much time can be gained by this serious base prep? If there is a scientifically supported answer I haven't been able to find it.

I'd say it is highly dependent on the course and conditions. On a long, flat course that has fresh snow or soft, wet snow the differences could be seconds... On a steep icy course you would probably find the differences to be less assuming you waxed for the appropriate temperature (not using warm wax when it is 0 degrees, etc.).

A guy I ski with regularly recently got a pair of 192cm GS skis to replace his 185's from last year. This year's 192's are up to a second slower on all courses, regardless of how much he preps them and waxes them. He skied them in an open GS a few weeks ago - a course which a 192 should have beaten the whole pack - and he was a second slower than the top guys. For the second run (similar set) he switched to his shorter skis and won the run... and this is a guy who can easily handle a 192cm GS ski with ease. He still hasn't been able to figure out why the 192's are slower... At this point the skis have been waxed over 30 times and skied in several times. They are just slow skis for some reason.

So... what you're looking for is a pretty variable topic. Those on the WC who regularly prep skis are pretty tight-lipped about what they use on the skis because it is the last line of offense in the speed department. You might have good luck looking to nordic skiing wax tests. I remember seeing something once that showed what those guys go through to select wax combinations (glide tests, etc).

Later

Greg

[BigE]

It's not about the speed gain by making it more slippery.... it's about the training effect!

To have consistently slipperly skis in all types of snow is the goal. That way your timing is not changed by the wax you use. It's hard enough to ski well -- it's even harder when you add inconsistent ski perfformance. You tend to compensate for sticky waxes.

Similarly with training suits. If you train in your insulated clothing, and strip down only in the race, what do you think happens to your timing? It'll go out the window, and you will be late, late, late!

So if you are actually serious about improving, make sure that your equipment won't get in the way. Folks will spend $1000 on boots and fitting, buy $50+++ lift tickets but cheap out when they're confronted with buying a $25 block of wax -- because they're not good enough skiers!

It's amazing really.

[Max_501]

I'm not talking about waxed or not waxed. I'm talking very expensive race waxes vs good (and still somewhat expensive) universal waxes and what the expected time difference would be (you can throw out warm wet snow as a variable).

Similarly with training suits. If you train in your insulated clothing, and strip down only in the race, what do you think happens to your timing? It'll go out the window, and you will be late, late, late!

Have there been any studies done to support this theory?

[BigE]

I don't know. That's all word of mouth, no doubt from sources you distrust.

Sorry to have bothered you.