Censorship at it’s best.

[h.harb]

Censorship at it's best, remove the good, leave the junk!

Epic ski forum: Censorship at it’s best.

Recently Max501 did some completely random, investigation of what coaches were teaching at Mt Hood. He visited numerous coaches and teams to see what the national focus is with race teams. This is the thread that Epic moderators pulled. Epic moderators say it was pulled because of the direction the thread was taking. In other words; their people, their gurus on Epic were being called out on their misrepresentation of skiing and their ignorance and falsehoods were being exposed and backed up with actual unbiased research. This is far to scary to keep posted on their site for all the world to see. .

It made them look bad and the discussion got hot. So they pulled it. Rather than doing what moderators should do and manage the thread, by deleting the offensive posts; they pulled it. It happens all the time, whenever someone demonstrates how wrong they are, they just yank the content, great tactic. That way within that little group they can be saved from reality of their own ignorance. The thread had huge merit.

It displayed valuable information about what is actually happening in skiing , NOT WHAT THEY MAKE UP ON EPIC! Epic: The Karl Rove web site of skiing, present and propagandize your position on skiing, no matter how wrong you are, and use ill suited, unaccredited coaches to take a stand that obviously the rest of the real skiing world totally disagrees with in all facets .

[Flexon Phil]

If you don't like...well stay away.

[Ott Gangl]

FYI, the thread has been reopened because of the valuable content after argumentative posts have been moved to another thread. To wit:

>>>This thread is being reopened because it has a great deal of valuable content. The off-topic material has been moved to a closed thread here.

I cannot emphasize enough how unacceptable it would be to rejoin the argument in that off-topic thread. But continuing with the current topic is more than encouraged.<<<

Except for some naysayers, Max's observations have fallen on fertile ground. You need to be up to date, Harald, and visit EPIC more often. The snippets you are fed by some folks here are often taken out of context.

Almost all the posts here are about EpicSki or PSIA, very little about PMTS, mostly about what not to do like the PSIA guys rather than drumming your own line "More ski information per line, No BS." Actually, why do you care if PSIA teaches it's instructors to teach pivoting, rotary and steering, obviously you don't teach that, so you should push what you do teach, methinks.

....Ott

[h.harb]

Educating the public is a two pronged effort, one to tell people what works and how effective PMTS is and the other to tell them how bad PSIA and present instruction is. If skiers get caught in PSIA instruction they know. Anyone who reads this forum and has taken PSIA lessons, soon understands and shifts toward PMTS.

Does Obama only tell people how good things will be if he is elected? No, he also tells them how bad the Bush policies have been for the country the last 7 years and how bad MaCain’s will continue to be; this is a balanced campaign. Besides, people have a right to know how screwed up their skiing will be if they follow the wrong system. Now if I was making this up without justification, I would be long ago out of business.

I have hundreds of skiers coming to my camps every season. Everyone has had a PSIA lesson. Ask them what they prefer and what the original lessons did to them. You will quickly see there is no comparison.

[Flexon Phil]

Educating the public is a two pronged effort, one to tell people what works and how effective PMTS is and the other to tell them how bad PSIA and present instruction is. If skiers get caught in PSIA instruction they know. Anyone who reads this forum and has taken PSIA lessons, soon understands and shifts toward PMTS.

Does Obama only tell people how good things will be if he is elected? No, he also tells them how bad the Bush policies have been for the country the last 7 years and how bad MaCain’s will continue to be; this is a balanced campaign. Besides, people have a right to know how screwed up their skiing will be if they follow the wrong system. Now if I was making this up without justification, I would be long ago out of business.

I have hundreds of skiers coming to my camps every season. Everyone has had a PSIA lesson. Ask them what they prefer and what the original lessons did to them. You will quickly see there is no comparison.

To compare your tactics of marketing to mudslinging in an election process is perfect. Surely something to be proud of.

[Max_501]

Surely something to be proud of.

My guess would be that Harald is quite proud for taking a strong stand on what he believes is a flawed system. He took a big risk in leaving the PSIA and openly bucking the system.

[Flexon Phil]

Surely something to be proud of.

My guess would be that Harald is quite proud for taking a strong stand on what he believes is a flawed system. He took a big risk in leaving the PSIA and openly bucking the system.

To go it your own and to buck the system is highly commendable and I am all for that, be it skiing or any endevour out there. I just look at any marketing 101 class, you build your product up and not knock another down. When you start slinging $hit, you usually end up with as much on your own hands.

[Max_501]

I just look at any marketing 101 class, you build your product up and not knock another down. When you start slinging $hit, you usually end up with as much on your own hands.

Pointing out flaws in a competitive system is a well known and often used marketing tactic that has been used for decades (if not centuries). A more vague version of that is FUD, which has become common in the high tech industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_unce ... _and_doubt

In addition, research suggests it works and rather well at that.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_n8569068

[h.harb]

Phil said:

When you start slinging $hit, you usually end up with as much on your own hands.

I agree PHIL, the first thing that comes to mind when I think of what Epic and PSIA are doing to the skiing public I think of s---.

Well Phil, you maybe a marketing 101 expert, but I went well beyond, after PSIA and Epic began with, personal attacks on me!!!!! not my skiing approaches, or PMTS, tactics you say, you so deplore.

If you think my descriptions of PSIA and Epic are s----, rather than honest, go over to Epic and tell them what a jerk I am. I'm sure you'll have a more receptive audience.

And BTW, if you haven’t figured out yet, and still think your superfluous, out of step comments about my marketing tactics are heeded, you may be reading me wrong. Or you haven’t the skills to figure out my motivation.

[h.harb]

Also, anyone still sking on Flexons is out of touch with reality. So what can you expect.

[Mac]

The trouble is, Phil and Ott, how many people are out there that truly want to learn how to ski better that are getting hoodwinked by PSIA and the garbage that gets bantered about on Epic? I feel sorry for anyone just getting started in the sport that truly wants to improve themselves. The chances of that happening in the present state of the ski schools across the country is pretty sorry. I know. I went that route once myself. That's what really bothers me the most. I'd hate to see anyone have to go through what I did. Most people would have given up in frustration. When I finally got to a position in life where the mortgage was paid off and the kids were out of the house and I could ski regularly, I decided if I was going to ski, I might as well learn to ski well. I took lessons faithfully, advised my wife and friends to take lessons, put my grandkids in ski schools, and pretty much got nothing out of it. When I mentioned my frustrations to a friend back in the early nineties, he recommended a ski instruction video to me by Lito Tejeda-Flores, who had basically came out and said that ski instruction in this country was leading skiers in the wrong direction, teaching more bad habits than good ones. When I first sat down and watched the first Breakthrough on Skis video, my immediate reaction was, why was I never taught any of this in all the lessons I took? Really burns me up to think that I learned more from that twenty dollar tape and Harald's Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier series than from the thousands of dollars of lessons I took. So if Harald has to rant and rave a little in an effort to save someone else the frustrations I had to go through, I'm all for it.

[h.harb]

Thank you Mac you have the skills to figure out my motivation.

[Flexon Phil]

Also, anyone still sking on Flexons is out of touch with reality. So what can you expect.

WOW, it is hard to refute such an intelligent response. You forgot to include.."Neener neener neener"

[h.harb]

Nice Phil, you are so predicable. You see I knew he would take the bait. But even better is the EPIC posting tactic of Bait and Switch. This is a well used tactic and happens on Epic all the time. A substantive topic appears, and it begins to go the wrong way for the PSIA crowd; so they try to switch it by putting up cute quips. Excellent!! Now can we go back to the topic of staying on topic, before it gets highjacked again.

[Flexon Phil]

Phil said:

When you start slinging $hit, you usually end up with as much on your own hands.

I agree PHIL, the first thing that comes to mind when I think of what Epic and PSIA are doing to the skiing public I think of s---.

Well Phil, you maybe a marketing 101 expert, but I went well beyond, after PSIA and Epic began with, personal attacks on me!!!!! not my skiing approaches, or PMTS, tactics you say, you so deplore.

If you think my descriptions of PSIA and Epic are s----, rather than honest, go over to Epic and tell them what a jerk I am. I'm sure you'll have a more receptive audience.

And BTW, if you haven’t figured out yet, and still think your superfluous, out of step comments about my marketing tactics are heeded, you may be reading me wrong. Or you haven’t the skills to figure out my motivation.

Show me where Epic had personal attacks on you? I see more of you discrediting the like of Nolo and Bob Barnes here than anyone saying anything about you over there. Usually the only time your teaching system is brought up is when your minions hawking PMTS.

Lets try a test...say one month...I bet if Max, Bolter or any of your proponent's refrain from posting on Epic, there will be nothing said of your little teaching method. I would gather in that time frame, your name or PMTS will not brought up ONCE. Up for that challenge? That way it is a win/win, the people of Epic can live in their world and you can get back to "more skiing intelligence per line and no BS", you up for that challenge?