Pushing the outside ski forward

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Pushing the outside ski forward

Postby tdk6 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:23 am

There has been a lot of talk about pulling the inside ski back but I have recently started to experiment with actively pushing the outside ski forward at the same time I pull the inside ski back. The reason I have been doing this is that I notissed that a 16y old racer girl that beats me hands down seemed to have her legs much more matched than I do. A video comparisson reveals this. She has her legs not only closer together sideways but also more even in the fore aft plane. Her Technica boots are tilted very far forwards so that allows her to pull that inside foot back and bend at the ancle at the same time she can extend her outside leg and stack it under her hip with probably not as much ancle flex and cuff pressure applied by me. My outside foot tends to lag far behind and I have problems with that outside ski skidding out and behaving inconsistently due to exessive cuff pressure.

Are my assumptions correct? The little experimentation I have done has resulted in positive results but I need to ski a lot in order to find out exactly how much I can push that outside ski forwards while still managing to stay out of the back seat. Actually, exactly how much I need pull it back after the transition where my knees are bent and my boots are far ahead of my hips while unweighted and floating. Now I consentrate on extending that outside leg out and not out and back. Any thaughts anyone?
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Re: Pushing the outside ski forward

Postby BigE » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:16 am

Your boots are far ahead of the hips, yet you want to push the outside foot even more forwards? I don't get it.
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Re: Pushing the outside ski forward

Postby h.harb » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:10 am

TDK, if you would stop fiddling around and begin listening to what is said on this forum you would already be advancing in your skiing. I know Finns are stubborn, but I also know they can learn. Please open your mind and begin to take a logical, step by step process. If you look at the skiers who post here, Max, JBotti, RichK, you would see great progress. There are many others and they are making logical changes and sticking to them.

You are stabbing around in the dark and clinging to the TTS, old, broken model. It' s been more than a year since I expressed, you should get your feet together. No one here advocates pushing a foot or feet forward. There are threads explaining this just a few weeks ago this came up again. How can you possibly carve the tip when you are pushing your feet or foot forward.

I know the girl that beats you is not pushing her feet forward, that's just what you see. She is managing her fore/aft balance with feet under her body and by holding her feet back at the correct moment so her hips can move downhill.

This is not technique; it’s logical physics. For a ski to run fast it has to be pressured and for the ski to be pressured; your balance has to be on the or near the center. The point where you pressure the ski center, is only a few inches long under the foot. Even on a flat easy race course, you don’t push the feet forward, as it would un-pressure the ski center.
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Re: Pushing the outside ski forward

Postby leopold bloom » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:48 am

Hello tdk6,

I think you are approaching this issue from the wrong frame of reference. I wouldn't focus on the relative position of the ski tips, instead, think about fore and aft balance or the relative position of your hips to your skis.

Some skiers end up with a lot of tip lead because it is a stable position. Your fore and aft base of support is much bigger in this position. As you well know, static stability is not the goal. Pulling the free foot back will "break" this stable, braced position and bring the skier's hips or CG forward over the centre of the skis.

Advancing the outside foot to line up with the inside foot is not part of this corrective measure.

I took a look at your "TDK @ Zermatt 2008" video. To my eye, you are in the back seat a bit on most of your turns. The skis are not hooking up as much as they could and you rely on turning your hips through the turn to assist your skis. The movements you suggest won't help--in fact quite the opposite.

Pulling your feet back under your hips will help you. Another way to think about the problem is how your release contributes to re-centering. If you really commit to your release, your momentum will carry you into the next turn and over top of your skis without a lot of effort.

- Leo
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Re: Pushing the outside ski forward

Postby tdk6 » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:16 am

BigE wrote:Your boots are far ahead of the hips, yet you want to push the outside foot even more forwards? I don't get it.

Interesting.... the problem with the hips forward discussion is that it all depends on what part of the turn you look at. In dynamic skiing the location of your hips in reference to your boots changes all the time but since we have two feet and ski with outside ski pressure we can try to keep our stance leg boot relative to our hips in a favorable location at the time of the pressured phase of the turn. Also, I dont think I ski with my stance leg boot far ahead of my hips during the pressure phase of the turn. Please correct me if Im wrong. If my free foot is too far ahead then I should be pulling it back but if the boot is very upright and stiff that is not really possible without loading it which in turn could result in the loss of outside ski pressure. I will deffinetly try to close my stance. Remember that I skied 30y of my life with my legs glued together so its really no match for me if I just make it my intent:

http://ski.topeverything.com/default.as ... D=D42D207E
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Re: Pushing the outside ski forward

Postby tdk6 » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:35 am

h.harb wrote:TDK, if you would stop fiddling around and begin listening to what is said on this forum you would already be advancing in your skiing. I know Finns are stubborn, but I also know they can learn. Please open your mind and begin to take a logical, step by step process. If you look at the skiers who post here, Max, JBotti, RichK, you would see great progress. There are many others and they are making logical changes and sticking to them.

You are stabbing around in the dark and clinging to the TTS, old, broken model. It' s been more than a year since I expressed, you should get your feet together. No one here advocates pushing a foot or feet forward. There are threads explaining this just a few weeks ago this came up again. How can you possibly carve the tip when you are pushing your feet or foot forward.

I know the girl that beats you is not pushing her feet forward, that's just what you see. She is managing her fore/aft balance with feet under her body and by holding her feet back at the correct moment so her hips can move downhill.

This is not technique; it’s logical physics. For a ski to run fast it has to be pressured and for the ski to be pressured; your balance has to be on the or near the center. The point where you pressure the ski center, is only a few inches long under the foot. Even on a flat easy race course, you don’t push the feet forward, as it would un-pressure the ski center.

Thank you Harald for your excellent input. My mind is more open than what I suspect you think but I will try my best to go wide open :). Anyway, Im not holding on to TTS, simply trying to gather information and applying and checking out what works for me and what doesent. I have found all your chapters in your essentials to be excellent and very helpful which I have not hesitated to express here, on the mountain and on other forums as well.

I know the word "pushing" is wrong but lets not get hung up on it. That is what the coach told me to do and maybe what I saw at first but also what i felt. But now when I have been experimenting a bit more I realize that it is indeed narrowing my stance that gives me that kind of sensation and not pushing the outside foot forward. The first step you suggest I take in your step by step model is narrowing my stance. I think I made progress on this issue this week but Im going to go back to tilting my boots a bit more forward in order to be able to pull that inside ski back more than what I can do now in combination with a narrower stance. Does this sound like correct actions?
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Re: Pushing the outside ski forward

Postby h.harb » Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:28 am

In your last post you sound like you are developing a much more reasonable approach. There is still tremendous misunderstanding in skiing by ski instructors, especially relating to stance width. Skiing with “feet locked” or feet locked together has never been anything we teach or suggest. Skiing with a “narrow stance“ or correct stance is completely different skiing.

I have always skied with a narrow stance, but I have never, I mean never, skied with my feet locked. The instructors community has such a mixed up bag of convoluted thinking about skiing it‘s sickening. Just because “they” instructors, used to ski or try to ski with a locked stance, now they apply that thinking to everyone. Ski instructors are just stupid.

No one who ever espired to become a good skier wanted to ski like a ski instructor, so go figure.
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Re: Pushing the outside ski forward

Postby Max_501 » Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:46 am

TDK, now take that same stance in your video and create angles by pulling the inside foot up while you tip. Also, the inside ski will not load up as you pull it back if you have very little weight on it.
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Re: Pushing the outside ski forward

Postby tdk6 » Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:53 pm

Max_501 wrote:TDK, now take that same stance in your video and create angles by pulling the inside foot up while you tip. Also, the inside ski will not load up as you pull it back if you have very little weight on it.


Here is a videoclip from the beginning of this season. You might remember it from the "diverging skis" thread; I start out with my skis fearly close together but they are angled into the turn a bit differently causing them to track wider towards apex as I tip and incline only to close down towards the transition as I untip. This clip also gave me a lot of food for thaught since I A-frame, step onto my inside ski at the end of the turn, lift my old outside ski off the snow and place it down at different angle, dont flex enough through the transition, am not sure about the relece and should be leaning slightly more forward. Note that its a bunny hill and Im trying to create some speed so that might be the reason for excagurated stepping and me rushing things.
http://ski.topeverything.com/default.as ... D=4851C0DD

Check out my 2006 ski demo for some closer stance clips. There is one where I try to use a very narrow stance but where I still incline more than in the legs glued together clip in previous post.
http://ski.topeverything.com/default.as ... D=FE1A+A69

I will try to get a new video made today.
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Re: Pushing the outside ski forward

Postby tdk6 » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:28 am

h.harb wrote:In your last post you sound like you are developing a much more reasonable approach. There is still tremendous misunderstanding in skiing by ski instructors, especially relating to stance width. Skiing with “feet locked” or feet locked together has never been anything we teach or suggest. Skiing with a “narrow stance“ or correct stance is completely different skiing.

I have always skied with a narrow stance, but I have never, I mean never, skied with my feet locked. The instructors community has such a mixed up bag of convoluted thinking about skiing it‘s sickening. Just because “they” instructors, used to ski or try to ski with a locked stance, now they apply that thinking to everyone. Ski instructors are just stupid.

No one who ever espired to become a good skier wanted to ski like a ski instructor, so go figure.

Glad Im making progress :). My intention has never been to ski with my feet locked at a certain distance apart if the definition is "gap of air between the legs. Also not if the deffinition is "ski trax width". Correct me if Im wrong but OLF and flexing through the transition are critical components when it comes to functional stance width management and free foot tipping.

Care to comment on the following photo montage of me in the gates on monday:
http://ski.topeverything.com/default.as ... D=+811+21E

We are racing today so i would very much like to get some feedback.
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Re: Pushing the outside ski forward

Postby Kiwi » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:18 am

TDK6

Its hard to see much with just two frames. However a couple of thoughts.

The idea of pushing the outside foot forward I'd abandon. Pulling the inside foot back seems to give me more time but is actually quicker through transition to engagement.
Your stance in pic 1 seems a little wide to be truly functional. However the skis are flat indicating a release to transition.
Perhaps most of all the effort you are making to execute the cross block is upsetting your pole swing timing, IMO. Late on your right side. Also your left hand is inside the body line before transition is complete which may induce slight rotation.
The focus on the cross block is seriously detracting from proper counter balancing and acting.

Maybe a few runs with cones or such to get the pole swing and timing independent of the other body elements might help. HH has commented on this before I think in the video that came with Essentials and certainly in text comments. To my eye your focus on the cross block is taking control of your more fundamental Essentials.

Good Luck

Kiwi
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Re: Pushing the outside ski forward

Postby tdk6 » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:53 am

Kiwi wrote:TDK6

Its hard to see much with just two frames. However a couple of thoughts.

The idea of pushing the outside foot forward I'd abandon. Pulling the inside foot back seems to give me more time but is actually quicker through transition to engagement.
Your stance in pic 1 seems a little wide to be truly functional. However the skis are flat indicating a release to transition.
Perhaps most of all the effort you are making to execute the cross block is upsetting your pole swing timing, IMO. Late on your right side. Also your left hand is inside the body line before transition is complete which may induce slight rotation.
The focus on the cross block is seriously detracting from proper counter balancing and acting.

Maybe a few runs with cones or such to get the pole swing and timing independent of the other body elements might help. HH has commented on this before I think in the video that came with Essentials and certainly in text comments. To my eye your focus on the cross block is taking control of your more fundamental Essentials.

Good Luck

Kiwi

Good observations and thanks for the feedback. Gates upset our skiing in more ways than one. First, they dictate and force us to turn in predetermined spots and secondly they need to be blocked. You are perfectly correct in your statement that the pole swing and the timing should be independent of other body movements but in the gates its hard not to aim for the oncomming gate with that outside arm. Do you think that I should be counteracting more and block the gates a bit later on in the turn with my outside arm further back?
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Re: Pushing the outside ski forward

Postby H.Hugo » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:38 pm

TDK6, I believe that I know where you are coming from - outside ski is weighted and thus tends to steal all our attention. One of the things I like about PMTS, as I understand it, is that there is clearly defined role for inside ski, mainly in tiping but also in fore-aft balance. It seems to me that pushing the outside ski forward would interfere with efficient counteracting.
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