Two schools/two examples

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Hi all:

Unfortunately, I became suddenly ill and have been out of commission for most of the season. I just recently returned home and am just getting back on my feet and went on a short ski trip. On the trip I skied with two kids. They are in this video and the circumstances are interesting so I thought I would post it.

Skier 1 is a 14 year old boy who through unique circumstances has spent all of his ski time skiing at the same ski school. This is a big mountain school with a very good reputation. It is home to past and present PSIA D team members. This skier has spent approximately 21 days a year skiing in all day kids classes and only at this one school for the last 7 years. He is in the top group.

Skier 2 is a 10 year old girl who has spent no time in ski school. Averages about 25 days a year for the last 7 years but only 5 days tis year. She has had some of the principles of PMTS explained to her. Mainly, tipping and counter balance. She is by know means a PMTS skier and has never had a PMTS lesson or been willing to do the drills but she has also been shown videos of HH and when she skis she skis with her dad.

I post this not because I am interested in picking apart kids skiing but because it is as close a comparison I could find for two schools of thought on skiing. Just thought it was interesting:

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Tried to embed the video but coudln't/ How do you. You tube link below:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFWjcxYiBmo

[Hobbit]

Embedding YouTube flash player does not work on this bulletin board because HTML is disabled by the PHP BB3 bulletin board designers for security reasons.

[h.harb]

I have to comment first on the development discrepancy in years between the two youths in this comparison. It’s not fair that a 14 year male is compared to at 10 year old female, as the skill level of a fourteen year old should normally be much a higher. The skiing history of the 14 year old boy is also more extensive.

Unfortunately this doesn’t bare out in the skiing. It’s only a short segment, but I can see the movement fundamentals. This is where TTS instruction failures tend to show up. Here is where lack of understanding of how balance works for good skiing, in addition, sticking stubbornly to wide stance teaching approaches really shows up. These two compromises really hurt this boy’s development. In a half hour, possibly two runs, I could have him at least two levels higher. If he doesn't make these changes, his skiing won't progress.

Both skiers have a step out extension, which hurts tipping in transition and higher angles for the arc.

Some things I would work on would be, higher and earlier little toe tipping, and flexing the legs into release.

Generally speaking, it's important and much can be gained by keeping skis at the same angles in transitions and engagements.

[Sidecut]

HH: If you look at the Girl's turn at about :37 seconds, isn't that a Phantom turn occuring?

[h.harb]

Yes, the young lady is using much better fundamentals and the Phantom Move. She also has the ski on edge and in the carve with balance on the outside ski for most of the turn. She also keeps well balanced through the loading phase of the arc. She could benefit from better upper body counter balance. A solid home base hand and arm position would help this develop.

[Sidecut]

Yes the hands move around a lot and that effects balance and there are varying degrees of inclining that counter-balance would cure as well.

Well over $10,000.00 spent on ski school for the boy. This is really the shame and the sham of these schools. Even within their own system where is the quality control and the training?

[tdk6]

What HH said, not fair comparing a 14y old boy and a 10y old girl but girls learn easier and with less force and I think that shows well in the clip. I also spot something not mentioned here earlier and that spells park. The boy is on twin tip skis that have their bindings mounted flat with no plates on and at the center of the ski. The condition of the edges are usually beyond lousy and the sidecut and the flex are not designed for easy and functional carving. However, it has mainly to do with attitude. Boys like that may be getting good instruction but has little or no interest in anything else than jumping and railing and what kind of helmet the pros use. They stand and sit arround the park area like snoboarders and discuss what kind of jump to make and what looks cool. They spend a lot of time on the mountain but very little time skiing and 99% of the little skiing they do they do by skiing straight at a jump or in the direction they want to travel in transfer mode. This is actually not a bad thing since the other option might be that they sit inside and play games on the computer. Instructors also many times emphasize the fun factor too much. I have strict rules for my instructors not to overdue the play and fun thing because if teaching is done correctly it is fun for the kids but they learn how to ski properly. There is a big chanse that the instructors teaching the kids simply just have fun with them and talked about jumping and railing somewhere out of sight. Kid is happy and that makes mom and dad happy and that makes for nice dollar turnover. Im not saying this is the case here in this particular case but its very usuall. I dont teach my own kids to ski but I keep an eye on them while they attend ski school when we are on vacation. However, I have totally stopped putting them in ski school since its a complete waste of money. If kids can ski well TTS ski school has little to offer. Best thing is race coaching at clubs with good merits and lots of happy kids and parrents.

And yes one more thing, kids are individuals and some are more athletic than others and develop at their own pace. Even kids from the same family can be totally different in this respect.

[Sidecut]

I hear what you are saying regarding the park. That's exactly the story with my son. However, that is not the story in this case. He is in class all day and they dont go into the park. I also dont think that having fun in a class and learning are exclusive.

[tdk6]

I hear what you are saying regarding the park. That's exactly the story with my son. However, that is not the story in this case. He is in class all day and they dont go into the park. I also dont think that having fun in a class and learning are exclusive.

Having fun and learning are offcourse not mutually exclusive but many times the fun factor is boosted way more and beyond what is necessary. How is the boy in other sports? I still think that it has much to do with the park gear and the park mindset.

[h.harb]

TDK, I know you want to defend TTS so badly and find any excuse to deflect its poor results. There is no question there is a difference between movements here, not girl vs. boy or park skiing. The movements I’m speaking of have to do with efficiency, not age and development. Yes, girls develop more quickly when compared to boys the same age, not boys 4 years older. Nice try though, but your bias shows up so obviously.

My son loved the park also and had twin tips, but he never skied with those useless movements an dstance that boy has in the video. A good instruction system would never let that develop.

I feel bad for him and I hope he's able to get some good instruction, I know he'll have lots more fun skiing correctly.

[Sidecut]

How is the boy in other sports? I still think that it has much to do with the park gear and the park mindset.

He does fine at other sports and he actually has no Park mindset. I don't think he'd ever really been in a park until he skied with us. He has park gear but that would not define his movements. He's a solid athlete in other sports.

[A.L.E]

That video reminds me so much of my ski school experience with my kids.

I gave up on ski school for my 14 and 11yr old boys when they came away from their last day long private in Big White Canada with the instructors idea of maintaining a "ruler width" between their skis. Crazy!!! The instructor himself had a widish stance but it wasn't 12 inches, how were the kids going to learn balance skiing like that? I just told them to forget everything they were told.

They have always hated ski school, just don't like being told how I guess. I was given a good idea from Colorado PMTS instructor Bob Hintermeister last year when I told him the boys don't like instruction he said, "don't instruct them just ski with them and challenge them occasionally". That was how he got them thinking about tipping, "can you tip your skis on edge and carve lines in the snow?" That opened the door a little and my 14 yr old who is a strong skier often checks his tracks now. Showing them still photos of their skiing also helps with things like counterbalance. It's very easy to explain the difference in body positions and the consequences of "banking" their turns. "You fall over!"

[Max_501]

You guys are all so nice. I tell my kids they are coming skiing and doing drills (without complaining) or no movies, tv, or video games. Works like a charm.

[tdk6]

Im not defending TTS (intentionally at least ) just trying to figure out what caused the kid to develop such bad movements. I was evidently wrong when it came to the park issue but IMO those park skis are not very good for learning how to ski properly. Its probably more simple than that: bad instruction . I have a full money back gurarantee when I instuct (never had to refund) but the problem is that normally parrents dont know what to expect and cannot judge if progress is good or bad. I would deffinetly not put the kid back with the same instructor or even school. However, thats easy for me to say..... For example I was not happy with my oldes sons tennis coach at our local club so now he is not playing tennis anymore. Is that good or bad?

[Bolter]

but the problem is that normally parents don't know what to expect and cannot judge if progress is good or bad. I would definitely not put the kid back with the same instructor or even school. However, that's easy for me to say..... For example I was not happy with my oldest sons tennis coach at our local club so now he is not playing tennis anymore. Is that good or bad?

IT IS BAD! Your son quit. That is what this boy will do, maybe. No wait, this kid has parents pumping $$ into his instruction, he will keep skiing and wonder why he can not handle terrain, bumps, crud/powder or race. "Why can't I ski better than a 10 year old girl?"

That kid is doing what he was told, I am sure of it. His movements and stance are the embodiment of ATS. He developed these crippling moves under guidance, he is a "good student" in a horribly inefficient system- two footed, open/wide stance with extention to start flexion to finish. That is all that you need to see, equipment has nothing to do with his movements or stance. BTW, park is a bonus if proper fundamentals are there.

Man this is sad!