Speed Control

[rlspalding]

I was having a lot of trouble with this. I know when I was practicing with my instructor I was starting to get decent turns. But when it came down to the steeper parts of the blues, I was having a difficulty with my speed control.

Can someone describe exactly what movements or forces/feelings are different between a turn where you are trying to maintain speed control and a "normal" carving turn on lets say a green slope where you dont have to worry about slowing down?

Would you please also explain to me what is going on differently with the ski between a speed controlled turn and a just a "normal" turn. I know there are long radius turns you can go back up the hill more to slow down. Im more looking for when your skiing short turns and not that far out of the fall line. Do speed controlled turns just end up going further up hill? Ive seen demonstrations of Max501 and HH with nice speed control, but not having to go "back up the hill" to control their speed.

What happens to me is I can usually make a couple of turns before I start picking up more speed than Im comfortable with, then I revert to my years long hockey training, and I look like a hockey player doing hockey stops for turns....It gets me down the hill, but my legs burn like mad...if youve never played hockey...stopping frequently is about the most tiring movement there is, thats why you see people skate in a circle to turn around instead of stopping.

[jclayton]

The best thing to work on is the "Bulletproof Short Turn" or "BST"

There are lots of posts on this . It is basically perfecting the "Two Footed Release " in book 1 .

I've done 4 camps now and on the last one in A- Basin this December we worked on this . It involves some brushing of the carve which assists with the speed control factor but it relies on perfect balancing over the skis in slow motion . When it is amped up a bit you can perform controlled short turns on the steepest of slopes

It also involves all the basics of PMTS . To keep balancing you have to use flexing , tipping , counterbalancing and a little counteracting . The last is more necessary as the slope/speed increases .

If you can't perform this in slow motion it is because there is a fault in one of the above basics .

After having done several camps and a lot of skiing I didn't pay that much attention to this drill . As usual , going back made me concentrate on defects which weren't so obvious when skiing fast .

So speed control comes with some brushing but with exactly the same form ( just milder ) as with full on carves and good balance so the skis are controlled and don't shoot forward .

[jclayton]

Also of course full carves on the steeper slopes rely on loading of the fronts of the skis vis a vis the " Power Release " . which is only effective when all the other basics are in place . Everything is just taken to extremes eg edging . You don't realize how extreme until you take a photo or video of yourself and compare it to Harald or world cup skiers

[tommy]

The more you manage to bend the ski to shorten the radius, the less speed you'll have.

Below a graph displaying the theoretical terminal speeds for a single turn for combinations of slope pitch and turn radius.

terminal speeds

[rlspalding]

I have read on the BPSRT method in the forums, but everything Ive read talks about the results or how it looks in the trail after you done, but I do not see much on how to initiate it. Unfortunately I do not have my books with me. I work in Africa, and I had to leave my books at home (big mistake).

I guess Im confused on how the two footed release specifically has anything to do with a BPSRT? Doesn't the two footed release pertain to all turns? Im a newbie to PMTS, but "brushing" does not sound that far removed from the "washing" I was doing during my private instruction.

[milesb]

The flatter your skis are before the fall line, the more they will accelerate.
This may not be noticeable on an easy slope, but really comes into play on black and double black. This requires a tremendous amount of speed control in the bottom of the turn, and very few skiers are skilled enough to do that without alot of skidding. Thus the usual advice about rounding out the top of the turn by steering the skis is pretty ineffective on steep slopes.
Now conversely, a ski that is on a decent edge before the fall line will accelerate more gently. So there is no sudden build up of forces to mange, and the turn can be completed as far across the fall line as needed with minimal skidding. However, the skis will be going quite a bit faster than alot of skiers are comfortable with, but really this just helps to get the skis on edge at the top of the next turn. So just try as much as possible to avoid big acceleration/decellerations of the skis, and speed control becomes much easier. As jclayton says, you've got to have all the Essentials in place before you can make this work. But it's worth it!

[trtaylor]

Two things here;

1. As suggested, you need to build your BPST. I'll try to post some video clips for you, since you are overseas without your books. Question, do you have a small personal video player with you (iPod or Pocket PC)?
2. You need to go back to milder terrain to practice. Then try the steeper run another time, but only to check your progress. Do not continue to make runs down terrain you are really not comfortable with yet. This will be detrimental to engraving your learned PMTS movements.

Tim

[rlspalding]

Thanks for the help.
I think I found a way to get at least the first book to me. I am having soemone I work with carry it over from the States. First to get my parents to fedex it to him in time!

But your video would be great! Yes I have an iPod, I also obviously have my laptop.

Don't worry, I do not do terrain I am not comfortable with. I am fine doing blues with big carves because I can control my speed fine, I just carve further up hill. But I see these videos posted around here of people with good speed control doing narrow turns along the fall line, and still being able to control their speed. Thats what I want to work on.

[leopold bloom]

Hello Rispalding,

I have a theory, totally untested, that you could teach a professional hockey player who has never snapped into a binding in his life to ski at a very high level in a day or two.

" stopping frequently is about the most tiring movement there is, thats why you see people skate in a circle to turn around instead of stopping"

The answer to your problem is contained in this statement from your post. You have identified that the difference between a hockey stop and the circles you describe above is analogous to the difference between your green groomer turns and your speed control problem turns.

If you divide your skating circles into the PMTS high-C/low-C segments you know from your skating experience that you are building edge angles progressively in the high-C segment. On skates, on a flat surface, there is no psychological impediment to doing this. On a sloped surface, especially a steeper sloped surface, the last thing any sane individual wants to do is aggressively arc down the hill into the fall line.

Complete and utter trust in technique is often confused with insanity by the third party observer. It is also the key to speed control.

Whenever I get in a speed control jam my tendency is to focus on the bottom half of the turn. This is an utterly dysfunctional, albeit natural, reaction. The only way to control speed is to focus on the top half of the turn because this is where we go awry on steeper, icier slopes (i.e. those speed control situations).

I am teaching my young son to ski. This has proven to be a delightful experience because we both respond to simple, monosyllabic directives. I would like to share a couple of them with you. I repeat these statements in my head, sometimes out loud, when things aren't going so well. They seem to work for me and my seven year old. I hope they will work for you.

1. To find a new edge, throw away the old one.

One steeper, slicker slopes, my natural tendency is to hang onto my edges. This behaviour gets me to the fall line without developing the edge angles I need to get out of it gracefully. Speed is the inevitable result. Throwing away your old edge is really committing to your release.

2. Trust your tipping.

Releasing and tipping need to meld into one motion. If you trust your tipping, you will tip early, i.e. right at the point of release and continue to tip progressively. Steeper slopes tend to test your trust, making it harder to tip "upside down" as they say in PMTS-speak. If you haven't developed good edge angles before you get to the fall line, you never will, no matter how hard you try.

Of course, to control speed you need to press on your ski in the bottom half of the turn, but if you can get the top half right, this will be easy and natural.

I have a little exercise that I do to help me work on these things. I call it the pyramid. I begin, on a moderate slope, to link some shallow carved turns that allow my speed to build up a little bit. Then I try to make each turn just slightly deeper than the last one. A slalom course set to this line would be narrow at the top and broadening steadily to the bottom like a pyramid. The point of this exercise is to identify what is working in the easy, shallow carved turns and make it bigger and more effective a little bit a time. Each turn will be a little more dynamic than the last one.

If none of this helps take up downhill.

- Leo

[tdk6]

The more you manage to bend the ski to shorten the radius, the less speed you'll have.

Below a graph displaying the theoretical terminal speeds for a single turn for combinations of slope pitch and turn radius.

terminal speeds

Hey Tommy, thats a cool diagram but could you please explain how it works. BTW, slope pich for instance can not be more than 45deg and turn radius is usually less than 30-40m. Also the maximum final velocity of over 100mph seems a bit quick. But how do these interact?

[tommy]

tdk,

the diagram is showing the increase in kinetic energy, gained over the actual vertical distance covered in a single turn, that is, the transformation of potential enegy to kinetic. This vertical distance depends on 2 parameters, the turn radius and the slope pitch.

The x axis shows the radius, the z axis the slope pitch, and the y axis the resulting velocity in meter/sec.

Obviously this is very theoretical stuff, ignoring a lot of real world params like friction and air resistance, but still IMO it displays the importance of keeping the turn radius small for speed control.

Btw, I'm not following your statement that slope pitch can't exceed 45 deg - even if few skiers would actually ski anything substantially steeper - but to me the limit is 90 deg, that is, free fall.

cheers,
T1

[trtaylor]

RL,

I will share some things I have found helpful to build the top of the turn.

1. Target Tipping, pg. 69 of Essentials.
2. A PMTS coach told me while working on this very thing: "The first turn is the hardest. Make every turn your first turn."
3. Make every turn your first turn using the Figure 8 turns drill. It is described in this thread http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/vie ... 02&start=0
4. Perform your drills on green terrain.
5. Always remember to search the forum. Your questions are the common questions those new to PMTS have. For example, see http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/vie ... ght=figure

Good luck with your training!

[tdk6]

tdk,

the diagram is showing the increase in kinetic energy, gained over the actual vertical distance covered in a single turn, that is, the transformation of potential enegy to kinetic. This vertical distance depends on 2 parameters, the turn radius and the slope pitch.

The x axis shows the radius, the z axis the slope pitch, and the y axis the resulting velocity in meter/sec.

Obviously this is very theoretical stuff, ignoring a lot of real world params like friction and air resistance, but still IMO it displays the importance of keeping the turn radius small for speed control.

Btw, I'm not following your statement that slope pitch can't exceed 45 deg - even if few skiers would actually ski anything substantially steeper - but to me the limit is 90 deg, that is, free fall.

cheers,
T1

Tommy, I will not tell you what I think of skiing 90deg pich slopes. I dont, I spend most of my time on 5deg pich slopes with 4y old kids but who cares. Anyway, I still dont get it so could you please explain an example using the chart, please! Thanks, tdk6.

[rlspalding]

Excellent Post Bloom! thanks a ton, I was looking at it from the wrong half of the C. I was assuming that it is the bottom half of the C that was important for speed control. which is why I usually end up in a "hockey stop" style skiing, when I want to slow down. I will definitely practice those drills you suggested.

Luckily, I was able to get someone to mail my ACBAES1 book to someone who is flying to Africa so I should have it for reference next week!

Thanks TTaylor, I will look at those other posts.

[rlspalding]

tdk6,
Im an engineer and look at graphs like that all the time, so I'll try to explain it, because I know it can be confusing, especially when your have a three dimensional graph.

Please remember this is a theoretical calulation and does not factor in wind resistance, friction of the skis, etc.

Basically there are three variables that is shown by this graph: Velocity, Turn Radius, and Slope Angle/pitch. The thing you need to remember is this graph is showing a very broad range. For most of us only the bottom right corner is useful, because as you said few of us go to 90 degree pitch.

Anyways, you can use this graph to determine any one of the three variables I listed above, BUT you have to know the other 2 variables.

When you look at this graph there are three sets of lines. 2 of them form a "grid pattern" that looks like its overlaid onto the colorful mound. The third set of lines are actually created by the different colors. That third line is actually the lines corresponding to a velocity. So if you look at the line between the creme and light teal colors, and follow that line all the way to the vertical axis, it reads as a 15 m/s final velocity. Now look at the "grid pattern" lines. The ones that kind of go away from the reader is the turn radius. If you follow these lines all the way down you should be at the "turn radius" axis. Now the lines on the "grid pattern" that seem to go from from right to left go down and meet at the "Slope pitch" axis.

So to use the graph you have to predetermine two fo the three values. So lets say you want to find the velocity if you know the slope pitch and turn radius. You find where the slope pitch and radius intersect on the "grid pattern" then follow the color around to the vertical axis to find out what your vinal velocity is. Remember that each color represents a 5 m/s range. So for example if you grid intersection meets in the middle of the light teal color, it means that your velocity is not 15 nor 20, its actually 17.5 m/s.

If you look at the overall shape of the graph it slopes down in two directions (towards the right and towards the reader). This makes sense. It may not be real easy to pick up but if you see that the graph slopes down towards the "Slope pitch" axis. This is not because of the slope pitch but because of the turn radius. This means if you keep your slope pitch the same, and start at a very high radius and follow the graph towards a shorter radius your velocity will decrease. It is similar for slope pitch. If you keep the same turn radius, but start with a high slope pitch and follow the graph towards a low slope pitch, your velocity will decrease.

The reason the graph is mutli colored is to help the reader see the lines coming from the "Final Velocity" axis. so if you look at a velocity above 10M, the colors actually bends around. So if you look at the light teal color, it represents the 15-20 m/s velocity. So if you follow this color, it "bends" around on the graph. This is because the colors are like a layer in cake because this is a three dimensional graph the colors help you keep perspective of each "layer" So any time the slope and radius intersects in the teal color it represents a velocity of 15-20 m/s.

If you want some practice, try to determine the velocity with a turn radius of 40 and a slope pitch of 15 (be careful when you are following the lines to know which lines correspond to which axis)

Sorry this is so long, but its not easy trying to type an explaination on how to read a three dimensional graph.