Footbed Confusion!

[ultradonkey]

I have been working with the H. Harb books for several seasons now and have made great progress. However, I am still having some troubles with balance, and I would like some footbed/alignment help. My feet overpronate, and my ankles are very mobile allowing my feet to collapse to the inside when weighted. Superfeet footbeds really helped, but not enough, as the ankle movement is still so great that I am always on an inside edge a little bit. I can't keep the skis totally flat or modulate my edge angles. Lots of practice has helped me learn to compensate and hold my ankles up, but my edging always ends up on or off; I can't control the amount very well or go to a very high edge angle.

I went to the local ski shop to see about a better footbed and they told me no footbed they had would stabilize my ankles. They said I needed a prescription orthotic. How can I tell if this is true? How would a footbed keep my ankles from dumping over, (they move inward even with the arch supported). If anyone else out there has feet similar to mine---what did you do? My legs are pretty straight, its just the feet and ankles that are the problem.

I have been using the Atomic R:EX ski and Atomic R11 boots.

Thanks for your help!

[rbrooks]

UD--

My understanding is that you don't want to lock your ankles in inside your boot. If your ankles won't articulate, then your edging has to come from farther up the kinetic chain--your knees or even hips. Your ankles are much more precise.

Instead, you may need to cant your boots. I was in your situation-I couldn't hold an outside edge no matter how hard I tried. I went to the Skunkwurks in Dumont and they started canting my boots-first with shims, then by planing the toe and heel plates.

Diana, Rich, Harald and Chris kept at it until now I don't even think about it. (Unfortunately, Diana says I can't blame my boots for my poor edging anymore .)

For perspective's sake, most people talk in terms of 1 or 2 degrees of canting. My left foot collapsed so much when weighted that we ended up canting it 8 degrees. When I put it on the floor, it falls over.

My final advice--hie thee to a PMTS certified alignment. Jay is in Washington, and Chris can give you the numbers of any others. You'll be amazed when you can traverse on your little toe edge and then make a phantom turn without twisting.

Rock on,

Randy

[h.harb]

Most footbeds are designed to control pronation with thick, hard matterial to lift arch. We see these in our shop everyday. They do little to help pronation, they just lock the foot and ankle. The right approach for feet in skiing is to allow some eversion (a controlled form of pronation that helps tip the boot, stabilize, increase and hold ski edge angle.

This can only be done by a professional that understands skiing movement in the ski boot. Few shops that I know of have this knowledge. Even prescription orthotics don?t do this. In a ski boot the heel bone must be held vertical, ( the technician has to angle the heel cup just right for the individuals's needs) the arch area must allow movement of the ankle to the side of the boot. Many hard cork and plastic footbeds impede the movement needed at the ankle, but don?t address the heel or forefoot that should be controlled.

Once you get the right footbed your balancing in skiing will become much easier. We do this everyday for racers. Why is it the public, who don?t ski as much or have the training that racers do, don?t get the help they need?

[ultradonkey]

The responses are much appreciated.

Now who are 'Chris' and 'Jay'? I would really like to go to a PMTS knowledgeable shop, but I did not know there was one in Washington. I live in the Seattle area BTW.

H. Harb's description of the typical footbed sounds exactly like what I've seen advocated in the shops. They take a molded insole and just beef up the arch with alot of hard plastic and collect $120.

About my boots: The sole units unscrew and apparently take a shim made by Atomic to cant the boot. The recommendation was made for me to cant the boot, so should I mess around with this myself or just stick to my quest for a good footbed for now?

Thanks again

[h.harb]

If you contact Jay, he is Skisynergy here on the forum. He can do it all in Portland, we are located in Colorado, west of Denver. Harb Ski systems technicians are the most highly trained in the ski industry and they understand the complete effects of footbeds, canting and boots together and how they influence ski technique. No other technicians or instructors in the ski industry have perfected and developed as effective a complete system as we have. We have done over 5000 complete evaluations and adjustments for skiers. It's one stop shopping for skier boot, footbed and alignment fixes.

[Ken]

Here's a somewhat techincal article that describes exactly what Harald does with his footbeds--
"Pronation is an important foot function and should be not eliminated, but controlled. Such early, unsuccessful experiments with [rigid] full arch support tended to discredit the general strategy. Now, the full arch support strategy has been revived using modern thermoplastic support materials. This allows for creation of custom supports with the proper blend of rigidity for control and flexibility for limited pronatory function and comfort." (emphasis mine)
http://www.biomech.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=193000715

My footbeds were made by Harb-trained person, Maria Fermoile in Fresno. They feel great and ski GREAT.

Jay threatens to come up to Crystal and ski...maybe he'll make good on that. Lots of us would like to ski with him. He can bring his footbed making kit with him.

[Icanski]

I went through 4 footbeds on my previous boots. Each time, the pro bootfitter castigated the previous model as not correct, and then made another and charged me enough combined to have paid for a flight to see HH and team in Dumont. With my new boots, I went there last year and was fitted and aligned and it had a huge effect. It was worth it!

I used to wear orthotics in my shoes, and an MAT specialist gave me exercises to strengthen my feet so I don't need them in my regular shoes. A podiatrist told me that if I kept wearing the orthotics my feet wouldn't be strong enough to hold me up and would collapse the foot completely. I don't use them in my shoes now and my feet don't hurt, provided the shoe fits correctly.

the problem here, is that if I have a student who needs alignment, I don't feel confident sending them to most of the boot fitters here. We need some PMTS trained fitters out here.
Icanski

[ultradonkey]

"I went through 4 footbeds on my previous boots. Each time, the pro bootfitter castigated the previous model as not correct, and then made another and charged me enough combined to have paid for a flight to see HH and team in Dumont."

It would sure be nice to see HH for the alignment, but that is not doable for me right now.

I am off the idea of getting an orthotic, thanks to good advice obtained here. I had nagging doubts about them anyway; how do I know they will work any better than what I have? I will try to obtain some footbeds more locally, from Jay possibly.

Thanks to everyone for the help!