Benni Raich

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Benni Raich

Postby Max_501 » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:07 am

Here's a clip that was put up over on Epic as an example of ski redirection/pivot entry used in WC SL courses.

What do you see in this footage?

http://stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e9725344/benni-l.mpg
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Postby BigE » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:49 am

Ski redirection.
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Postby 4Slide » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:49 am

http://realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtop ... sc&start=0

I'd basically echo this prior thread from here, that also had footage of Raich among others; here's slalom footage of Paerson in slo-mo as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94jE6Xtj_vo

Those are not "pivot-slip-style" pivots, however you want to refer to them. The folks at Epic will also say Raich is skiing incorrectly because contrary to Epic guidance he is lifting is his inside ski. Go figure.

In the middle of the Raich slalom clip he does get back in conjunction with a weighted release (watch the right ((outside) leg flex at the start of this) and briefly nearly go completely airborne, but this is still not a turntable-style pivot nor an ACTIVE redirection of the skis.
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Postby carver_hk » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:57 am

BigE wrote:Ski redirection.

is it before or after turn initiation or both? :D

Catskills - it looks he lift both. I notice this around the in middle of the video sequence.
Last edited by carver_hk on Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Max_501 » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:02 am

BigE wrote:Ski redirection.



What movements do you think Benni is making to redirect the skis?
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Postby stikki987 » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:44 pm

I see massive rebound combined with some retraction coming out of the turns, then it's a tipping action- but the tipping is done in the air- and landing on set edge angles.

The high C occurs while airborne so he's skipping ahead to the edge angles he needs mid turn. If he waited until on the ground to tip he'd be late and miss the turn.
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Postby 4Slide » Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:36 pm

stikki987 wrote:...

The high C occurs while airborne so he's skipping ahead to the edge angles he needs mid turn. If he waited until on the ground to tip he'd be late and miss the turn.


Thumbs up. In that section, by the time his shovels touch back down he already has counteracting built into his hips among other things. Other than the unwind from the prior turn, he's not even moving his head that much, much less actively leaning in or throwing his upper body around; nor is he actively up-unweighting. Given that, with his hips showing counteracting it's unclear to me as a matter of mechanics where all the active ski redirection or pivoting is even supposed to be coming from.
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Postby 4Slide » Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:06 am

I checked out the Epic thread, it seems that among other things "Fastman" has come up with a new catchphrase, "anticipation counter," that involves a big prewind and is according to him being routinely taught to 13-14 year old racers across the country. To be fair, some other people there in addition to Max seem to find this a stretch. Basically I think the key point is to not take these types of discussions on Epic seriously. The falls you'd get from unloading all that stored prewind over the tails of race skis could be pretty spectacular, I do have to grant that.
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Not so Fast-man

Postby h.harb » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:51 pm

Nice job stikki987, I agree with the comment, go back to the original topic on this subject. There is no redirect in Benni?s skiing. So what if he?s in the air, that?s rebound, he?s still making PMTS movements. These Epic posters have never skied on slopes let alone courses like this or have skied at these speeds on this tough a hill. They know nothing!! That?s a Cramer quote!!!

Again, you have to know the intent of the skier; Epic posters keep trying to use a limited understanding of world class skiing to prove irrelevant points.

This footage is about 5 years old, when Benni was on Lange boots. Some alignment problems still existed on these boots. Fastman is full of ?do do?. No one in is right mind is teaching winding/ unwinding to redirect skis. I just spent five days with over 10 teams at Copper Mt, watching and talking with coaches. Fastman, what planet is he from again?

HH quote from previous thread about this topic:
First, you have to point out and realize that justifying or validating your skiing through or by the means of picking out, attaching and focusing your emphasis on a presumed comparable technique, with the wrong intent, from a World Cup skier; this is not only a huge stretch in reality and hype, but it?s offensive, presumptuous and arrogant.


I have personally coached and trained coaches that work at Vail, Stratton, US Ski Team, Sugarbowl, Waterville, etc. no one, I repeat, no one is doing what they are advocating on Epic.

BTW, in the Anja video run, why hasn?t anyone remarked about how narrow her feet are? Where is she steering her feet? Why isn?t she extending off her outside ski leg? Boy, she must be getting ripped up about her technique over on Epic.
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Postby stikki987 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:17 pm

I would think rhythm plays a factor too. Rhythm is the same movements repeated, so changing movement patterns throughout a race would screw with rhythm. Raich is performing the same tipping movements regardless of whether his skis are on the snow or not so as to maintain the all important rhythm.

WC skiers could probably ski courses blindfolded just going off visualization and memorized rhythm of primary movement.
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Re: Not so Fast-man

Postby Max_501 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:20 pm

h.harb wrote:There is no redirect in Benni?s skiing.


How about in this video of Rocca (offered as an example of redirection on Epic).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quraAyYBGXw
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Postby h.harb » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:32 pm

One thing we do in PMTS, is we say what we mean, we describe what we do. We present our intent, even if some are not proficient yet at the task. We don?t obfuscate the real movements that are happening, with terminology.

If we say we are carving, we are carving; we don?t say we are carving when we are actually pivoting, twisting or park and riding.

The Epic, and their "instructor" (using the term loosely) group seems to want to cover up and confuse people using loose terminology to describe theirs and other skiing performances. To me, that is an attempt to cover a lack of skiing efficiency and fundamental understanding, yet still come off sounding like experts.

The posters there who elect themselves gurus, don?t have credentials, (I don?t know who they are, until they get dragged over here), I?ve never heard of these people. They make sweeping statements about technique on the World Cup. This is simply absurd. If you have not skied at that level, you have no business and you can?t possibly be correct (lucky every once and a while maybe?) about what you write.

The technique they teach, isn't even in the same movement century as WC skiing. They should work on that and get it right, before they venture into WC skiing technique.

I know all the top coaches in the USA and Canada. I have never heard of these people on Epic who make these technical comments about WC skiing. It?s a laugh. There is no WC skier trying to redirect the skis without an edge engaged and pressured. Just because there are times the skis look unconnected, doesn?t mean they are not in the process of trying to connect. WC Speeds, forces, momentum and reactions to steepness and ice, are all things these posters have never experienced, and can?t possibly comprehend. So it?s easy for them to talk. WC skiers are definitely not in the process of redirecting a ski, especially not Rocca in this video example.

Saying otherwise only demonstrates the lack of actual first hand knowledge. Why are they making these things up? Someone without credibility surely doesn't enhance their position by offering up a plate filled with this dribble.


If you have never been in those situations (WC speed, steep, icy, injected slopes, please stay calm and ask politely) you shouldn?t be trying to mislead skiers with technical analysis that?s way off base. I know few coaches without WC experience themselves, who would make such comments, yet the Epic crowd seems to think they are better and know more than coaches who have spent years on the WC.
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Redirection or not?

Postby Tuomo » Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:03 am

h.harb wrote:
There is no WC skier trying to redirect the skis without an edge engaged and pressured.



This is a very educational topic in general but I'm a little confused coz of the above quote. Does it mean that there is sometimes redirection of skis in WC skiing but it only happens as a byproduct of tipping (and uncoiling body from earlier turn) in certain situations? I ask this because I see some redirection of Benni's skis especially when the skis are off the snow. I don't know his intentions but I presume tipping is the primary movement.
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Postby h.harb » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:35 am

You have the right idea; no intentional redirection is created through a specific technique used or taught to racers, only that which is cause and effect from the tremendous energy and violence (which you can?t see in video). You have to be standing right there or doing it yourself to realize the energy and power that comes from the release and edge change.

WC skiers are trying to control redirection, not create it. That?s where these experts have it wrong. Just the energy of the edge change with the legs moving from one side to the other so quickly, creates redirection, so no technique to create redirection is needed. Instructors ski with such low energy because the technique they use doesn?t create it. That?s why they believe they must re-direct the skis to get turning. This is the wrong approach, as you will never become an expert skier using instructor technique.

In other words if you learn to ski correctly you don't need to be so focused on re-direction, you would have more than you could handle, developed by using movements that created energy, instead of killing it.

You just have to ask yourself this simple question; would you rather ski like a racer or an instructor? They ski totally differently. If racers used what they proposed on Epic they'd be terrible racers and laughed out of the sport in minutes. There is just no reasoning or logic in these ideas, if there were, instructors would be good skiers. Remember what is holding instructors back is their very technique they espouse and teach. When you mention instructor skiing to racers, they laugh and make comments like, ?those guys can?t ski.? Those very instructors are trying to define WC ski technique, now that?s where the joke resides in all this discussion.
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Postby Ken » Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:28 pm

h.harb wrote:WC skiers are trying to control redirection, not create it.
Re-action, not action. Last year, one of the honchos on Epic, initials BB, made a big posting and supplied photos purporting to show racers steering their outside ski into the turn to get more tip-edge grip. Yes, the leg clearly showed rotation, but the subject was bogus for two reasons. (1) The tip is so far from the leg that leverage is preventing any meaningful tip-edge grip benefit from any human amount of steering, and (2) Just tipping the outside foot to get more big toe edge angle causes the leg to rotate, anyway. The leg rotation was re-action, not action.

You just have to ask yourself this simple question; would you rather ski like a racer or an instructor?
Hey! A few of us instructors are trying our best to ski like racers. Among PSIA circles I get no answers to this question---
--Golfers want to play with the same fundamentals as Tiger.
--Tennis players want to use the same fundamentals as Venus and as Roger Federer.
--Baseball players want to swing and field with A-Rod's fundamentals.
--Basketball players want to play with the same fundamentals as Michael and Kobe.
--As a certified rowing coach, USRA has me teaching beginning recreational rowers the same fundamentals the Olympic rowers use.
--Why do ski instructors who use the same fundamentals as Benni and Anja fail their certification exams? They extend when we must retract. They retract when we must extend. Why?

No answer to date.
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