PSIA-Northwest Fall Seminar Report

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PSIA-Northwest Fall Seminar Report

Postby Ken » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:48 pm

The Fall Seminar was this last weekend. The Seattle session was very well attended...they reported record attendance. I'm always impressed with the large number of very dedicated volunteers who give presentations, serve on the board, and other functions for the PSIA districts--they put in lots of hours and care very much about their organization. And, they have no idea whatsoever that their Emperor has no clothes....

I attended two presentations on teaching, and learned a few things, especially about the different development levels of children of different ages. The keynote speech was about developing a model for feedback. Movements lead to ski/snow interaction leads to good results, with communication tying it all together. Only give positive feedback..."you're doing such and such good, but do more of it." Well, duh, tell me something new.

The best attended presentation was on the new senior skiing certification. I have a couple of problems with their program...no credit for life experience (I'm a gray muzzle skier), and they still do the up-extension turns and rotary steering which are hard on creaky old joints.

I still don't understand how they are stuck in their rut that doesn't even follow their own publications. Their "stepping stones" include retraction turns, but they teach and show nothing but extension turns. Edging is supposed to be as important as rotary movements, but it's all rotary all the time. Their publications say that they teach the movements, not the positions, but, really, they teach the positions. The videos of their summer race camp showing these good skiers (who could become really, really good) doing huge up-unweighting extensions in turns between gates was just sad. And they thought they were skiing very well!

To be a very good PSIA skier, one has three requirements...be in excellent physical condition, no gimpy joints, and do a very good job of selecting your parents so you're born with a huge dose of natural athleticism. To be a very good PMTS skier, just listen to H & D & J & Rich. None of the former three conditions are needed...look at me. I'm good and could be very good if I listen better to the brain trust.

H & D & J & Rich are major league. Max_501 is triple-A. The PSIA-NW tech team, as shown in the videos, is double-A. They can ski much better when they free ski, but when they do, their natural athleticism has them skiing somewhat like PMTS, 'cuz that's simply what makes the ski work best on the snow--but they don't do that on camera where doctrine is king. I was good at the seminar. I tried something new and different...I kept my mouth shut. That wasn't the forum for me to start telling these Level IIIs, technical directors, tech team members, 20 to 40 years of teaching experience, that I know of a better way. (sssshhh...I do.)
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Postby Icanski » Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:30 am

..."you're doing such and such good, but do more of it."
First they need to tell the children that they are doing x and y well. Their grammar is as bad as their skiing.
It's nice if the kids are doing "good", they're making the world a better place, but are they skiing well?

They probably also say, when looking at tracks:"these ones are good, and these ones aren't"...like their skiing it lacks efficiency...how does "these ones" denote anything more specific, than "these"? I bet they also say, "I,personally..." Really? Who else would you mean.

Sorry, but since I work as a dialect coach for films in the summer, I try not to let the language bet butchered. Like Totally!
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Postby BigE » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:05 pm

In short, the positive talk keeps 'em coming back for lessons, the focus on rotation keeps them needing lessons.

What's wrong with simply teaching people how to ski?

They won't need you anymore.
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Postby Heluva Skier » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:36 pm

BigE wrote:In short, the positive talk keeps 'em coming back for lessons, the focus on rotation keeps them needing lessons.

What's wrong with simply teaching people how to ski?

They won't need you anymore.


That is certainly one theory, but lets say you're a skier who is willing to take a lesson to learn something - doesn't that thinking seem a bit backwards?. Lets say you come out of that lesson having learned something that really changed your skiing. If you are making real progress is there any reason you wouldn't want to go back for more? If I know I am going to actually learn something to make my skiing better I am much more willing to fork over money for additional coaching.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:36 pm

Ken, to avoid future disappointment maybe you should stay away from the PSIA functions. Or do you crave the feeling of superiority?

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Postby jclayton » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:45 pm

C`mon Ott ,
Ken has lots of positive things to say , they are a nice , cosy , homey , feelgood group , patting each other on the back and giving each other a feeling of security . Just that no-one tells them that security doesn't exist . Look at all the film stars getting their million dollar mansions burnt down .

Life without security is reality , and a hell of a lot more exciting .
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Postby h.harb » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:54 pm

I think he craves the slim prospect of change and possibly a glimpse of enlightenment. Sorry, what was I thinking, got to be realistic? He probably does like the knowledge that he is superior.

It?s frustrating to know all these high up officials, examiners and trainers are on the wrong track and you have to keep your mouth shut, just to maintain your standings, just to teach at a ski school.
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Postby BigE » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:15 pm

Heluva Skier wrote:
BigE wrote:In short, the positive talk keeps 'em coming back for lessons, the focus on rotation keeps them needing lessons.

What's wrong with simply teaching people how to ski?

They won't need you anymore.


That is certainly one theory, but lets say you're a skier who is willing to take a lesson to learn something - doesn't that thinking seem a bit backwards?. Lets say you come out of that lesson having learned something that really changed your skiing. If you are making real progress is there any reason you wouldn't want to go back for more? If I know I am going to actually learn something to make my skiing better I am much more willing to fork over money for additional coaching.


The thinking is sort of backwards. Learning to ski is well down the list of things that folks remember about a good lesson. They remember the experience, not the technical details. Providing a "vibrant experience" tends to be the focus of many instructors. They don't sweat the small stuff, like learning to ski.
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Postby Ken » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:35 pm

The poor grammar is my fault.

Ott, I am very favorably impressed with the dedication and hard work those good folks put in. I disagree with them about the direction of that effort, however. One of the presenters commented on the need for very good core strength so one can use those core muscles to help pull themselves diagonally across their skis into the new turn. We know of a better way that doesn't take that much strength and may result in a longer ski day and longer ski trip for less well conditioned skiers. Of course, the better one's conditioning, the better the skiing for all of us.

I always look for a way to give positive honest feedback. Of course, there are times to tell a person to stop doing something, but that should be as few times as possible. Don't tell folks to stop doing something wrong* if there is a way to tell them what to do right. If you're coaching baseball, don't tell the pitcher to stop throwing high pitches. You'll get...a high pitch. Tell him to start throwing low strike pitches...you might get some. We know that negative feedback doesn't teach a person what to do right and too often results in the instructor being the subject of negative attention instead of the instructions getting the attention.

*Always immediately stop unsafe actions. Non-negotiable.


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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:46 pm

Ken, as an instructor you well know that once you take your class out on the hill you can tech anything you want and you can disguise it as your personal tricks.

Just say:"Now that you have learned how to (whatever) I'll show you my personal way of doing this which will take a lot less effort once you master it. Once mastered you can choose which one to use or use them both".

That fits right into PSIA which allows you to teach better skiing and if it is some stuff right out of HH's books no one will complain as long as you don't outright try to discourage people from taking lessons at your resort and bad mouth the teaching there and steer them to PMTS if your resort offers it or to book learning..

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Postby Max_501 » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:42 pm

Ott Gangl wrote:That fits right into PSIA which allows you to teach better skiing and if it is some stuff right out of HH's books no one will complain as long as you don't outright try to discourage people from taking lessons ...


PMTS isn't a mix and match system. It simply doesn't work if you mix it with active rotary movements.
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Postby BigE » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:25 pm

Hold on a second guys. When talking about skiing organizations and coherence, I'll say PMTS is a more coherent teaching methodology and has a better game plan.

Ken, It may well be that the presenter that suggested you need a strong core / diagonal crossing muscles was thinking about this move:

Advance the outside foot along the arc scribed by the outside ski. (Note I did NOT say push the foot forwards.)

I will suggest that this is in the category of a "move the foot first movement" but the power that drives this move originates in the core. It is filled with co-contraction.

Those familiar with inline speed skating might have an idea of what this move is, with reference to "heel carve during extension"... Un-coached rec skaters almost certainly won't....

Is it an advanced move? You bet. Should it be taught as a way out of the intermediate trap? I don't know. I honestly don't know enough about it's applications ..... yet.

I raise this because I am interested in exploring the possibilities of adding novel movements at the end of the full progression.
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Postby Max_501 » Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:11 pm

BigE wrote:Advance the outside foot along the arc scribed by the outside ski. (Note I did NOT say push the foot forwards.)

I will suggest that this is in the category of a "move the foot first movement" but the power that drives this move originates in the core. It is filled with co-contraction.


If you perform PMTS movements the foot will advance automatically. No need to apply additional focus on 'advancing' the foot. My guess would be that many (perhaps most) students would misinterpret the movement and end up even farther in the backseat as the outside foot was pushed forward.
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Postby h.harb » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:01 pm

No, No, No, foot forward in PMTS, Max is right, the inside foot already gets there too easily, no need to focus on anything that happens too much already, without thinking.

Can't just paste PMTS on top of regular traditional, no, no, no, Ott, you have to understand PMTS before you can make such comments. I know it is so desperate out there that anything will help a traditional lesson, but let's be fair to the student, why not start correctly instead of hiding behind a failed system. This is not Communist Soviet Union, you should be able to teach what works best, sorry lost my head again, it is like the old Soviet system.
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Postby BigE » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:34 am

Not even if the hip stays above the foot? The idea of the "heel
carve on extension" uses the core advancing the entire leg/outside half to remain in balance above the ski while tightening the arc.

I see some on the WC circuit doing precisely this sort of move - Pearson for eg... and wondered if it could be made to fit at the highest levels.

That's all there is to my question.

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