What a weak Act!! Epic Censoring PMTS Supporters

[jbotti]

Its comes to my attention that Max_501 had a bunch of posts deleted and modified. In one case it was for including a link to the PMTS Instructor's Manual. Then BorntoSki started a thread asking about the modding policy. The original post was answered by one of the Epic mods who basically said Max's posts violated the Terms and Conditions of Epic. But when Max_501 put up a post clarifiying what his posts were about they promptly deleted the thread!

This is what losers do when they have been beaten. They cheat!!!

Oh well, it was always a weak act anyway!!

[h.harb]

I thought Epic was an open ski forum, not a PSIA forum, shucks what a shock and surprise, I forgot awe ???!!

[h.harb]

I don?t understand all the concern over there on Epic. PMTS is not trying to take it?s customers. It?s no secret to us they are trying to run a camp business with their members. How worried about the quality of your product are you if you can?t have a discussion about other methods of skiing on a forum?

Their customers are not as good skiers as the PMTS folks at our upper level camps. Our upper level campers are better skiers and coaches then Epic coaches, so it?s a different level of skier, and participant motivation.

[4Slide]

There's a reverse Darwinism that tends to happen to that type of "open" internet forum in terms of the posters that come to predominate, so getting posts deleted there can actually be a compliment in an odd way. I think most of the moderators there are sincere; I also think that few of the moderators there have ever even heard of, say, Zahrobska, much less being able to identify how Zahrobska and Schild might differ. (Because of the number of Epic posters who read here passively, I know I was just responsible for a burst of Googling). That's ok, there's a lot more to life, but it means that they have a very hard time distinguishing between quality posts and those that are way off, because they themselves don't have the knowledge or experience base to make the distinction; and will tolerate heavily branded and promoted products and posts from some who are socially and professionally well-connected, but view posts from someone like Max very skeptically. It's not confined to skiing by any means; probably the most popular and widely used climbing site has a similarly poor signal/noise ratio. Hey, it's the internet.

[Hobbit]

The recent changes in the epic policies are not coherent. I hope they would improve the wording to make it clear.
If I would be their owner / operator, I would just run the automatic filter and remove all the posts with "PMTS", "HH" or "Harald Harb" in the text . This would be a great improvement in my opinion.

They say "it can't happen without any support" but Max, and others (including myself) have a supporter status -- we paid the supporter dues. The definitions are vague plus you can not discuss them in open since those posts got deleted.

Isn't it time to exit those discussions -- they've got so repetitive.
They should limit their instruction forum to the discussion on the brand of skiing promoted by their new corporation.

By the way, try to google "ski instruction" and see what comes out on the top

[jclayton]

Epic is a complete waste of time , very boring and nothing of any coherency about ski technique or instruction . Lots of post's are superficial " sound bites " a la TGR " tough guys " and lots of " in house " language a la pre school playground .

The only posts worth listening to are from PMTS members who post here and one or two from converts .

I'm a cynical so and so , no sychophant , but Harald's posts are clear , objective , progress logically from point to point and are demonstrable on the snow .

Max 501's posts appear to have set the cat among the pidgeons . Very dangerous and subversive , next they'll be calling him a commie pinko or maybe that should be Taliban to be up to date . Let's see if the
" domino effect " causes causes an Epic implosion .

[h.harb]

When ever people are challenged and are losing the upper hand, or have no answers, they become insecure and over reactive. Max501 and others, have made, the Epic PSIA gang, uncomfortable. Max and others recently, have made the EPIC Gang, actually justify their theories, what they teach, how they explain it, and worst for them, they have had to try to present their materials to a few skiers who actually are experiencing a type of skiing that works, skiing with a completely different approach.

What really is annoying to them is that Max501 is a very successful skier, very smart, very patient, level headed, and unemotional about skiing. He takes skiing technique at surface value, no hidden belief systems, no agenda. He just wants what works. If every skier did that, PSIA and Epic would collapse.

Max has skied for six years and one year with PMTS. He is, with a few other PMTS knowledgeable folks and some former PSIA instructors, who have seen the organization for what it is, dismantling the Epic elite brain trust.

The Epic people can?t explain their methodology, technique, and reasons for existing, in a way that any normal human can understand. So they open themselves for continual questioning by skiers who are knowledgeable enough and are not satisfied with a slaphappy convoluted answers. In many cases, not all, questioners of the ladled out and espoused techniques by Epic regulars, have relatively little background with ski technique, teaching , but they know what works for their skiing, through solid experience. Look for example, at what John Mason was able to do to them almost by himself and he was a relative beginner to skiing. How the high and mighty have been exposed, opened to the world and now viewed differently, with maybe less then the former omnipotence they enjoyed from their followers.

Every time Max501 calls them on some gibberish they post, they continually come back with further examples of their confusion. They brought this on themselves. They have lost and have as much admitted it by their latest behavior, of imposing censorship. Drastic measures for drastic times, got to save the empire.

Why can?t they just give a simple technical answer that makes sense to skiers? Why do they have to confuse the issues with pages of repetitive misinformation? Because the don?t have a ski system, what they have is a convoluted group of maneuvers and ideas about skiing that lead skiers to a dead-end. Look no further then their own skiing demonstrated on their own web site. Who would put up those examples of skiing, if they really understood good skiing and could explain it? No one who didn?t think they had a captive, obedient audience that they could dupe.

[milesb]

Hobbit, eventually there will be no PMTS discussions allowed there. It really isn't welcome there, so I am not going to post anything about it there anymore. No big deal.

[Ott Gangl]

With all due respect, Harald, John Mason and Max501 are treated with respect as are all others, or should be at epic, they are spirited debaters and are not there to disrupt or show up other members in the forum. If you don't believe me, read more of their posts over there and the posts of others interacting with them.

You mention the new rules, which were partly created to keep people from attacking each others personality as has happened to Max and many others not related to PMTS. Who cares how long they have been skiing, they are knowledgeable about what they do to ski as they do and are explaining it well, that they learned it via PMTS is just incidental, there are others who learned it in Europe or South America and they don't make a fuss about where they learned either.

When I read Max's contributions I just think of Max and his skills, not PMTS, for all I care he could have acquired them on the moon, or anywhere else, the important thing is that he has those skills and understands them and can articulate them. More power to him.

....Ott

[Max_501]

You mention the new rules, which were partly created to keep people from attacking each others personality as has happened to Max and many others not related to PMTS.

So how is the new rule of not referencing a book going to help with that? Its not. BTW, I was specifically told that new rule is to stop what they consider to be advertising and viral marketing.

[Max_501]

Hobbit, eventually there will be no PMTS discussions allowed there. It really isn't welcome there, so I am not going to post anything about it there anymore. No big deal.

Darn, I somehow lost my first response to this. Another try.

While there are some folks (especially Weems and Nolo) that have made it known that they consider my mentions of PMTS to be marketing for HH, there are others (including instructors) that discuss it freely. In addition, I have received PMs from people I don't know thanking me for posting. So, some folks hate it and some folks like it.

I just think its a real shame that we can't mention all of the helpful books out there. Recently I had mentioned "Ski the Whole Mountain" in the Bullet Proof Challenge thread as examples of how PMTS turns can be applied to the steeps. Without those references and the great pictures of skiing steeps shown in that book the discussion would been a "because I said so" vs a "prove it" situation.

The real question is why are the owners of Epic so concerned with this perceived marketing? What do they care if they are truly running an open forum to discuss skiing? I just don't get it.

[Ott Gangl]

Max, I just read the new rules and explanations. EpicSki is a privately owned site that promotes it's own camps and has private interest. Just as it would be frowned upon here if someone came here to espouse the greatness of the ESA camps, so it is there, it's their house and you have to respect the house rules. That said, you ain't doing so bad, people are responding to your skills and how you explain them, it's the reference as to where you acquired them, rather than how, that may be objectionable to some. Coming over here and telling folks that the really need to attend an Epic Ski Academy camp to understand would also go over like a lead balloon.

....Ott

[Max_501]

Max, I just read the new rules and explanations. EpicSki is a privately owned site that promotes it's own camps and has private interest. Just as it would be frowned upon here if someone came here to espouse the greatness of the ESA camps, so it is there, it's their house and you have to respect the house rules. That said, you ain't doing so bad, people are responding to your skills and how you explain them, it's the reference as to where you acquired them, rather than how, that may be objectionable to some. Coming over here and telling folks that the really need to attend an Epic Ski Academy camp to understand would also go over like a lead balloon.

You are comparing Apples and Oranges. The PMTS forums are ONLY for discussing PMTS and HH makes no bones about that.

[Hobbit]

Miles, I am not upset -- quite on the contrary.
I think that they are riding the PMTS wave for free thanks to Max_501 and they should stop it and go to the place where they belong.
Guess what -- some of my friends ski the old way and I enjoy the company. But I don't take tips from them either

Google results for query "ski instruction" :

#1
Ski Reviews>ski reviews, ski instruction, ski technique
ski reviews you can trust, ski instruction that works, ski resources available only here.
www.techsupportforskiers.com/

I would say -- pretty darn accurate

[dewdman42]

FYI - Nolo was recently made president of Epicski. That should tell you something.