max 501

[h.harb]

Hey Max, can you post some video of good PSIA skiers, someone who is not an instructor, we'd like to get 500 posts on that topic over here on the PMTS forum.

[Heluva Skier]

Hey Max, can you post some video of good PSIA skiers...

Before you even got halfway through that sentence you already asked for a pretty big feat...

[h.harb]

Greg, there might be three explanations or reasons for your comments, which are pretty much observable, either good skiers don?t take lessons from PSIA or PSIA doesn?t develop good skiers, or skiers give up on PSIA before they become good skiers. This begs the question, why do PSIA instructors think they can improve through PSIA training when public or recreational skiers obviously do not?

Are they so locked into the system and it?s the only way to get certified that they have to get training from PSIA. What if PMTS was to start a PSIA certification camp? Would PSIA instructors come? I know they would become good skiers much faster than through PSIA training. We have already proved that.

[Heluva Skier]

My comment was originally meant to be humorous, but then I figured I would consider why that attitude is the perception of some avid skiers.

Because PSIA is a certifying organization (for instructors) before it is a training organization (for skiers) the vast majority of strong skiers that exist within the organization had their beginnings (training) elsewhere. Many higher level PSIA instructors who do have a fair amount of knowledge and talent have spent time racing, or in competition skiing at some level (usually at an early age), or have spent time as a high level USSA or FIS coach. In my experience (limited compared to some) PSIA does not always breed the talent that they do have within the organization... they import it so-to-speak, and certify it. I have worked with a few pretty good coaches who were both USSCA and PSIA certified, although they consider their main certification/qualification to be the USSCA one.

In contrast, PMTS seems to be a training organization for skiers, with less focus on the certification process and more focus on the actual teaching of skiing (like your signature - no BS). Now, I have no doubt that progressing through to the PMTS Black Level cert is a focus of the system you have created, but even you have said it yourself on this forum - even along that path the student vying for the cert will greatly improve their skiing.

Think about this situation:
Do you go for a certification to improve your skiing?
-or-
Do you improve your skiing in order to get a certification?

The two statements above are quite different mind-sets in my opinion. The latter infers that your goal is the higher certification rather than the higher level skiing, which may cause the student to do just enough to get the pin and move along. Now, I am sure that many within PSIA have the attitude of the first situation - but - is that stance rewarded in PSIA? I don't have the answer since I have never been through the cert process. I can tell you however, that I ski well enough now, without any PSIA training to get my L3; but I do not think the case would be that same if I were to do a walk-in on a PMTS Black level certification. I feel I probably wouldn't learn a lot by testing for a L3 (not saying I wouldn't learn anything), but would probably be educated considerably if I were to test through the PMTS levels.

Later

GREG

[h.harb]

Very good observations, it?s always curious that people who are not totally brain washed by PSIA, can use their brains when it comes to skiing and instruction. You are right on all counts.

We have numerous coaches in PMTS, one is a level 4 Canadian and the other a Master coach in USSA, who has worked for the US Ski Team for over ten years of his coaching, both are following PMTS and both have clearly stated they learned more then they believed. They tell everyone that they couldn?t have acquired this level of information from any other system.

In the PMTS accreditation instructors gain knowledge, can practice the system and improve their own skiing, as they progress through the system.

[h.harb]

If anyone remotely followed the Max thread on the ?Bullet proof short turn? over on Epic, (Max sent me some clips from it), it was blatantly obvious those guys are working overtime trying to find faults. The MA they provided was wrong, almost every time. First it was lifting, then he wasn't extending (they were proved wrong easily there), then his boots were too stiff, and the latest was that he was flexing too much, which put him in the back seat. Does anyone have a dartboard? .

They don?t have the tools, they are not equipped to do MA or provide the fixes for skiers, not only for skiers at Max?s level, but even more damaging, they don?t have the tools for helping skiers who are totally messed up from their own system.

I saw a MA from one of their guru?s. A big full page, long explanation, all it had in it was, ?You should use more leg rotary/steering.? Now the guy, if you want to look at the MA I did on him, it?s in the Sticky thread at the beginning of the forum, has numerous problems, none of which have anything to do with not having enough leg rotary. This is the state of the art in that organization. It?s no wonder these guys get stuck in dead-end movements and don?t make progress.

[4Slide]

That thread got very amusing when people started trying to say Max was overflexing, particularly when someone asserted that he couldn't be flexing just to release because his skis weren't pointed straight across the hill. With Kostelic retiring, I half expect someone to ask how much faster she could have been if she hadn't occasionally down-unweighted. In fairness, there are PSIA certs with racing backgrounds and the like who would understand what Max was doing and who in in many cases are great at teaching; they just seem to have avoided that thread, and also have the problem that contradicting other "pros" would not be considered good form. That thread does show vividly though that it's possible to be a high-level cert and be so wrapped up in theory that some of the basics of modern skiing technique, like crossunder turns, look strange to you. (My apologies for not using the correct PMTS terms.)

As regards "flexing too much, getting backseat" and lifting his inside ski tip, there're both a montage and video of Palander linked in that thread that display exactly that movement pattern, so it's not like no one had examples in front of them.

I should say I'm not the same "Catskill" as posts on Epic, when I registered here I didn't know someone was using that handle there.

[Heluva Skier]

I had suggested to Max - and I would be curious to hear Harald's thoughts on this - that instead of working to flex more than he already is, Max should work on the rate/quickness with which he can flex now (since he mentioned bumps and slalom to be two of his ultimate goals). I compared his turns some some I have seen of Harald, and it is clear that a skier at the level of Harald can flex almost instantaneously depending on the turn (compare carves to bumps, etc.). Max's flexing did appear to be slightly slower and less natural than what can be observed when watching Harald ski, but I am certain that mere miles on snow will cure that.

I skied with SCSA the other day and interestingly, he described Harald as something along the lines of a "human accordian" because he can suck up just about any terrain he puts himself on.

Later

GREG

[BigE]

The correct amount of flexion is stated on page 11 of the essentials:

FRAME:4. Increase flexion of stance leg until it as flexed(bent) as the free-foot(inside) leg.

Max does this in his video. My comments on overflexion are clearly incorrect.

[4Slide]

http://www.janica.hr/fotogalerija/20031 ... oritz-(SUI)7_big.jpg

The link doesn't seem to work? Feel free to delete as it may be distracting.

[Sidecut]

it works: just copy and paste it instead. for some reason the link didn't include the last few characters. Or try:

http://tinyurl.com/33ysmj

For long links you guys should try:

http://www.tinyurl.com

[h.harb]

Thanks BigE,


Max501 asked me about his tip lifting at the end of some arcs, from his video, at or during the release. I see nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with it. I reviewed video and photos of the best skiers in the world, including all mountain and racers. In almost every turn series there is lifting of the old stance ski at the end of arcs. I find myself, in many photos in my ?Anyone can be an Expert Skier? book 2, doing it and also in recent videos I'm shooting for my new Essentials of Skiing DVD.

In high level skiing, extreme flexing and even a tip lift is not an out of balance state. For intermediate skiers it is an out of balance state, as intermedaite skiers don't generate the energy to re-center from that kind of release. Intermediate skiers have a real strong adjustment process to deal with when they sit this far back with low hips.

I find in my own all mountain skiing, I often get a low hip and lifted tip situation at the release. When skiing fast on 40 to 45 degree slopes, pressure and load develop quickly, and if there are terrain features as well, such as bumps, soft snow piles, the load doubles and that energy needs to be absorbed, distributed, and redirected.

In an attempt to spread out the forces, and keep the skis moving to the next arc, at the bottom of the arc, (I think Joubert called it gliding) rather than take the forces all at once, which can lead to hard hits, more flexing and some controlled intentional jetting of the skis can be beneficial or even necessary. This is easily reeled in, as the forces and loads on the body at release are strong, and can to re-directed to catch the hips up quickly. So even if you are back and the skis are moving forward, experts can deal with it skillfully. In intermediate skiing, more muscular effort by the skier, is needed to re-center, if such extreme positions are achieved. These re-centering movements at the high levels are very athletic movements, not often dealt with by ski instructors, so it?s not surprising that some confusion and misunderstanding prevails about these topics and these situations.

Some instructors will try to do MA on this and say it is bad technique. You need to be there and ski it at this speed, then you can talk!!!

[h.harb]

Looks like he's lifting the inside ski to me???

[jbotti]

This brings up something I have been deliberating about in my own skiing. Is it Ok to allow your hips to fall behind the feet while flexing?

It appears from the the above picture of Harald on the right that it is an acceptable positiion if one has the skill to recenter quickly in difficult terrain.

[h.harb]

It comes right down to why skiers have difficulty skiing bumps. Somewhere in this whole process of learning to ski, skiers have to learn to let go and re-catch the skis. Even on easy bumps like these there is a point where you have to let go. Pulling the feet back and tipping is a much more important movement then most skiers can atest to, and many instructors don't realize it needs to happen.