PMTS and how it is differs from other systems

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PMTS and how it is differs from other systems

Postby Max_501 » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:33 am

There is an interesting (and quite lengthy) thread over on Epic. It started off with my skiing and some interesting (and incorrect from a PMTS point of view) MA by different PSIA professionals. It has now moved into a discussion of PMTS movements and differences between PMTS and other systems.

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=55170
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Postby h.harb » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:22 pm

TDK, I'm amazed that you are confused about relatively simple biomechanical matters. I can understand that about TTS skiers and instructors, but I thought you focused more on the efficiency that goes with racing.

Although I noticed hip rotation and up movements in your skiing and demos, I didn't realize that was your intent. I know you like to reference WC skiing to validate your points for understanding, but hip rotation and up or extension movements (doesn't matter which leg is creating it, it's still an extension) from a strong edge set, is not what the WC skiers are doing.


TDK wrote:
At first it surpriced me that it was so hard for PSIA affiliated persons to accept such a good consept but now I see that PMTS is in some cases and at particulary very high devotion levels really quite limiting.



I invited you to a higher level of understanding with the PMTS approach, but before your education could become functional, you slide back into the traditional. I know PMTS requires Koolaid drinking, it doesn?t hurt, be open, your skiing can only benefit?

I won?t belabor the comments you made on Epic about, PMTS being an incomplete system and limiting.

I?ll give you that much space. But before you make such comments, wouldn?t you first want read everything I?ve written and understand the whole PMTS system or wait until you have seen me teach, coach and ski.
How about asking a question rather than making a statement that's unfounded?

Your comments about focusing on the hips, maybe that?s just part of your misunderstanding or incomplete knowledge.

TDK wrote:
In austria there is a strong focus on hips and for good reason. Racers all ski with a very strong focus on hips and edging. All successful skiers have in common functional hip movements.


I don?t know where you come up with the comments about the Austrians and their focus on hips. I know the Austrian coaches, I worked with the Austrian Head men?s coach for three years. I was also asked by the present Austrian Team Director to coach for the Austrian Team. I am very familiar with what they do. I communicate and ski with the sports scientists and biomechanists that test and research the athletes on Austrian ski team. This communication includes sitting down with the researchers, using kinematics and video to do analysis of WC racing movements.


TDK wrote:
It seems we cannot reach consensus in this discussion since PMTS does not really talk about hips. PMTS talks about movements. Some adjustments have to be made on both sides for reaching agreement.
In Austria there is much more focus on hips than what I can see that there is in PMTS. The skiing in itself is not different but the approach is. This is maybe the reason why Max focus is not on his hips but on movements that are listed in the manual.


Let me first make clear, PMTS is not and does not try to be a dirivitve or in line with the Austrian teaching system. The Austrian teaching system is just as Traditional as PSIA.

PMTS?s focus on the hips is appropriate, and relative to needs and importance for a given skier. This is so for all movements in PMTS, because they are based on our Student Directed model, the MA approach we developed. If a skier has good control of counter acting movements and fore/aft balance then little attention to the hips is needed.

HH:
The hips should not be a focus in skiing.

WC racers don?t have time to think about what their hips are doing. They focus on staying in and holding balance, and adjusting pressure on the edges.

HH:
The hips are too far from the ski?s interaction with the snow.


They don?t need to even think about balance, they just react. They do focus on pressure as managing pressure is everything in racing. Pressure managing makes your skis go where you want them to go and makes your body move with or resist the forces. If you have Essentials engrained into your skiing you don?t have to think about movements. HH:
Movements are for learning, and learners, not to be thought about while performing
.
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Postby h.harb » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:52 pm

Time and time again the ignorant make incorrect statements based on their limited knowledge of PMTS, how?s this for a beauty?
This is a PSIA instructor's education at it?s best. It demonstrates how the limited understanding of skiing and how much closed minded arrogance, in that organization by some, are still as pervasive as they have ever been .
I have to say, before I give examples, that there are contibutors on Epic that are coming up with reasonable understanding and good comments. Since I am not a reader of Epic, I have to guess that Max has been a very positive influence in developing a better understanding of PMTS over there. Although it would seem judging by this thread, that PMTS information is being spoon fed, rather than from a self motivated search for educational, through reading and doing.

Epic post:
I have yet to SEE what I requested above from any PMTS poster, HH included. Come out and show it, or put it on video and get it up here.
If we here at Epic can't comprehend how it can be done and can't see it, I have to assume it can't be done. (or done by very very few)


Here we have typical justification for being limited in understanding and low competence. Just because this poster can't figure out how to do it, it can't be done.
He probably says the same about German, ?I don?t get it and I can?t speak it, so it can?t be done.?

What a poor soul, this is great logic, he hasn?t seen it yet, so it doesn?t exist. And the world is flat, because I can?t seen the end where it rounds off. And the sun revolves around the earth, because it?s always there following us.

Again limited experience doesn't qualify as fact or proof or lack of existence there of. This level arrogance based on this poster?s minimal education and information filtering ability, is extraordinary.

Epic poster:
From what I understand PMTS is all about skiing without active leg rotation, yet all I see is steering in the last clip Max posted of HH in the brown jacket. We seem to see HH arcing along on the groomers and then switching to "brushed" (same as scarving as best I can tell). That alone pretty much indicates a different set of movements.


I think Max?s post of me skiing a bump corridor illustrates clearly PMTS movements, which I think I use, are perfect for skiing a falline corridor, without applying, directed, intended leg rotation or steering, down a very steep Double Black, bump run.

Assumptions and mis-quotes about the PMTS system by this individual doesn't make the system limited, it demonstrates only the writer's limitations.
Here?s a caper:
Epic skier: Indicate the PMTS moves in Klammers rather famous downhill run.

What in, "who ever?s name" does Klammer?s run, have to do with Teaching correct skiing to advanced and intermediate skiers?
Absolutely nothing.
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Postby h.harb » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:57 pm

The thread Max linked us to has now gone beyond 11 pages. It revolves around a number of topics, they all demonstrate that there is an important and clear difference between PSIA and PMTS understanding, skiing, movement acquisition and teaching philosophy, So I think it?s very good. As I stated earlier there are some very good comments being presented by the posters about legit (for a change) PMTS content and usage.

The crux of the movement issue is the ongoing misunderstanding for PMTS?s dismissal of intended rotary movements, steering and pivoting in ski teaching. No one asks why PMTS has rejected rotary movement teaching. PSIA instructors can?t see a life without it.


So that is why they have to continually reference their way, as that's the only way they can relate to what we are talking about, or what PMTS can accomplish.


Why PMTS discards and dismisses rotary movements or steering: First skiers who come to PMTS have poor rotary skills. What that tells us is that either PSIA is not good at teaching their system or the system itself is flawed. What are we to do? When you see a skier pushing off their stance ski to rotate their bodies into the next turn. This without tipping or any other ski control abilities.

In an advanced skier, although we achieve good releasing with flexing in PMTS, it doesn?t happen immediately with a PSIA taught student. The releasing activity, after you already use gross PSIA movements, doesn?t bring you to the continuous movement to transition achieved by flexing and tipping.
Releasing with flexing , doesn't automatically release the hip if you are trying to hold and edge, or have used up your range of motion at the end of the turn, because you used leg rotation and steering in the middle and bottom of the turn. What these guys still don't get is that it's not semantics. Intentional leg steering and rotary movements (how often do I need to say this) create a detrimental movement pattern that causes many different inefficiencies in a skier and for a turn.

Using and learning Flexing and tipping does not. Intentional rotary leg movements and ski steering, limits very important essentials, like flexing, extension in the arc, and tipping (especially at higher skiing levels with speed in steeps, bumps etc.). PSIA movements force the skier to set an edge at the end of an arc. I call it forced because that?s the only way to gain a hold on a slope. If you don't have control through the whole arc the only way out is to set an edge. There are varing degrees of this, but none are good.

This kind of end to a turn doesn?t produce, "follow through energy", moving the hip into the next arc, by a simple flexing action. So the only alternative is to extend again, somewhere at the edge set. This means pushing off either leg creating an up movement. This kills hip movement into the next arc, that's why PSIA has to always talk about some kind of extension at the release. This is very elementary understanding, but they don't want to see it, as this is so prevalent in PSIA they would literally have to throw out everything, to correct it, it?s better not to acknowledge it.
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Postby dewdman42 » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:01 pm

Harald,

In TDK's defense, he did eventually apologize on that thread for some of the comments you are quoting above and readily admitted that he is teaching some PMTS to his kids and appreciates much about it.

I believe TDK is beginning to see the light about PMTS but is just going through a legitimate critical-eye period where he is looking for problems and reasoning them out in his mind. It is somewhat to be expected that anyone with a substantial background in skiing or teaching skiing will have some skepticisms that need to be resolved one by one.
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Postby h.harb » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:07 pm

Funny the topic of knee angulation comes up a lot. First there is no such thing as knee angulation. We don?t teach it, but we teach movements that create the right way to angulate. If you teach knee angulation you will see a skier developing a knee drive movement, without regard for the ski?s reaction to that movement.

PMTS is much more sophisticated. We teach flexing with foot and ski tipping. What does this produce? A body relationship to the ski and snow surface that looks like knee angulation, to those who don?t know better. It works and it fools them, as I have trained many PSIA instructors who wanted higher certification and were stuck, not able to pass. After a year or two of PMTS, they were able to achieve full PSIA certification, after up to ten years of failing with PSIA?s own skill training and methods.

Funny how the examiners always seem to comment to these instructors how much their steering and rotary skills had improved. I guess you could say that PMTS works for PSIA, but not the other way around.
Last edited by h.harb on Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby h.harb » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:18 pm

Dewd, thanks, but I?m commenting on his recalcitrance, not about his not so obvious desire to evolve. I understand this is a process. But after the time he spent here and the time we gave him, to turn around and make statements he made, isn?t fair or respectful behavior. We gave him respect when he was here. Max was also extremely patient with him.

I?m commenting about his statements, that are clearly jumping to conclusions, with affirmation, not about his desire to understand. I have no problems with people who want to learn and ask or even present their understanding that?s all fair, but that wasn?t the case. Understanding is achieved by asking questions, not by making erroneous statements. Everyone can make mistakes and everyone deserves second chances, I am very forgiving when this conclusion is reached.
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Postby Heluva Skier » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:30 pm

h.harb wrote:Funny the topic of knee angulation comes up a lot. First there is no such thing as knee angulation. We don?t teach it, but we teach movements that create the right way to angulate. If you teach knee angulation you will see a skier developing a knee drive movement, without regard for the ski?s reaction to that movement.


By this I assume you mean that it does not exist in PMTS? Knee angulation definitely exists (at least to my knowledge), but I do not think that it is actively taught in any circles anymore (racing being my familiarity). My understanding of it has always been that it was a bail-out move that racers could use to tighten a turn at the last second if they didn't or couldn't set up the top of the turn properly. I don't know if that is a correct approach or not, but the movement itself seems very dangerous for your knees... so I actually try to avoid it at all costs when skiing.

Later

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Postby Heluva Skier » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:42 pm

h.harb wrote:Why PMTS discards and dismisses rotary movements or steering: First skiers who come to PMTS have poor rotary skills. What that tells us is that either PSIA is not good at teaching their system or the system itself is flawed. What are we to do? When you see a skier pushing off their stance ski to rotate their bodies into the next turn. This without tipping or any other ski control abilities.


I would think that the flaw/weakness behind this observation lies in what is taught to the said skier first - whether they are taught rotational movements or tipping movements first. Early-on this seems like it could very easily define the reality that the skier lives in - causing them to have a bias toward one movement or the other.

I made an observation similar to this, this season when skiing with my girlfriend. I taught her t ski (yes, brave - I know - but we are still dating after 3 years of skiing together) without ever teaching her to wedge turn (other than to demonstrate it's usefulness in lift lines). Interestingly, now that she has learned to carve clean arcs she opts for those turns anywhere that she can get away with it (semi-steep pitches are a no-go for cleanly carved turns).

This is likely where re-learning comes into the picture when many traditional skiers take up PMTS learning. I suspect the same earth shattering reality check would happen if the said skier woke up one morning and decided they wanted to start racing competitively...

Later

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Postby h.harb » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:54 pm

That is absolutely right, imagine after the first lesson when the skier wants to then get on more challenging terrain with wedge and steering movements. I can?t believe PSIA doesn?t see this problem. The skier turns in to an edge digging power wedger.
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Postby h.harb » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:34 pm

I skipped right to the bottom of the page, so I missed your knee angulation post. Knee angulation is not the right terminology for what is happening. The knee joint does not angulate. The femur rotates, which is a rotary movement. If angulation is attempted with a rotary movement it causes, you guessed it, skidding.

If you try to drive the knee when the ski is on a high edge angle, you are likely to injure your knee. Knee drive in this situation is very dangerous, as it putts tremendous torque into the joint, from the femur trying to rotate, while the ski is locked on edge. The only place things can twist is in the joint.

A Stanford study of exactly this movement produced situations of extreme joint mis-loading, conclusion, knee ligament and meniscus damage are likely. I have alerted PSIA about this, as many instructors tell students to steer with the leg and knee and they also tell them to drive the knee into the hill. Coaches also do this.

PMTS gets great results without any of these dangerous teaching approaches. The only thing that can result from the ski locked on edge and attempted knee drive is , ligaments pulling in the joint. Twisting the femur over the tibia, which is what knee drive does (unless you flatten the ski and create skidding) can also develop into long term overuse injuries. Rotation of the femur does look like the knee can be bent to the side or in, under the body. But that?s not how to get to this position.

The best way is to flex, which takes some load off the ski, but keeps the edge angle. When some load is relieved, you can add tipping with the foot and ankle in the boot. This will increase the look of ?knee angulation? with out damaging the knee. I was talking to Dewd about this movement in November. This can be done in racing, after the leg is extended and there is a need for shortening the arc.
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Postby dewdman42 » Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:03 pm

h.harb wrote:Dewd, thanks, but I?m commenting on his recalcitrance, not about his not so obvious desire to evolve. I understand this is a process. But after the time he spent here and the time we gave him, to turn around and make statements he made, isn?t fair or respectful behavior. We gave him respect when he was here. Max was also extremely patient with him.


I hear ya and I know what you mean. I was actually kind of shocked when I first read his postings to be honest. So there it is.
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Postby HERB » Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:29 pm

MAX,
I saw your post on epic and almost posted the first reply. It would have been, " I want to ski like that" . Now i'm curious as to how you've developed such endurance and patience to hang in so well on that thread. My hat's off to you.
"flexing and extending are verbs" HH
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Postby Max_501 » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:00 pm

HERB wrote:Now i'm curious as to how you've developed such endurance and patience to hang in so well on that thread. My hat's off to you.


Truth be told I almost gave up on Sunday evening. But then Borntoski jumped in and answered a bunch of things I just didn't have the motivation to tackle. Then today BigE stepped in as well. So, things are rolling again.
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Postby dewdman42 » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:08 pm

Now BTS is tired
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