Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

PMTS Forum

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby Rick H » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:17 pm

To my somewhat untrained and ancient eye, it looks like neither skier is tipping. both are just swinging their skis from side to side. And the poleplants are awful. The baskets are coming down a foot ahead, or more of the bindings. :?
Rick H
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:11 pm

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby cheesehead » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:16 am

Rick H wrote:To my somewhat untrained and ancient eye, it looks like neither skier is tipping. ... :?



I don't know. I see both of them tipping, and I don't see extensions either. I can't find much wrong. But I am definitely untrained.
--- aka John Carey
Madison, Wisconsin
cheesehead
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:42 pm

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby jbotti » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:44 pm

Assuming they are two different skiers, the first one is making some very nice turns. There is a lot of tipping going on, and considerable use of the phantom move. We might chosse to pole plant differently, maybe trying to avoid the massive rebound that he is getting on each ploe plant, but I think this is nitpicking. Those are nice turns.

The second guy, I don't like as well. Agree his weight is further back and he is using more of a hard edge set although done with considerable skill. The front portion of his skis are not slicing the way Harald does, and his tipping is not occurring nearly to the degree of the first skier.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 1811
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby larski » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:29 am

Ah, my first post here.

Couple of background items: I have 3 of Harb's books and intend to attend one of his camps soon (I also have Lito's first and last books and Mark Elling's "All-Mountain Skier"). At this point in my ski education/skills acquisition program, I consider it essential that I get these linked short radius turns down pat. Yes, I skied Killington's Outer Limits the other day but thank God it was not all bumped up otherwise I would have been in a world of "survival skiing."

Regarding proper short radius turns, I too would like to know whether the video linked above ( link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwJ7fuA3fsM ) depicts proper SRTs per Harb's methods.

Here's another video clip of SRT's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLXNQvV4p8g&NR=1 . Do these examples represent proper technique? And if not, why not?

Regarding the matter of heel push vs edge set, it seems that some observers here believe that the first video shows a lot of heel pushes and that this is a bad thing. But it seems to me that even if there is a lot of heel pushing going on that these heel pushes are done with the skis on edge and thus represent a edge set as opposed to just a smearing of the snow with flat skis. If so, it would seem that these heel push edge sets could be improved upon simply by pressuring the center of the ski more -- so really it seems as if this would be just a nuance as opposed to a material flaw in technique to me.

Finally, It would be most helpful if Harb himself, or one of his colleagues, commented on the questions posted above. After all, Harb and his teaching staff best know his techniques and are thus in the best position to comment on these videos.
larski
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:53 am

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby geoffda » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:39 am

larski wrote:Ah, my first post here.

Couple of background items: I have 3 of Harb's books and intend to attend one of his camps soon (I also have Lito's first and last books and Mark Elling's "All-Mountain Skier"). At this point in my ski education/skills acquisition program, I consider it essential that I get these linked short radius turns down pat. Yes, I skied Killington's Outer Limits the other day but thank God it was not all bumped up otherwise I would have been in a world of "survival skiing."

Regarding proper short radius turns, I too would like to know whether the video linked above ( link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwJ7fuA3fsM ) depicts proper SRTs per Harb's methods.

Here's another video clip of SRT's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLXNQvV4p8g&NR=1 . Do these examples represent proper technique? And if not, why not?

Regarding the matter of heel push vs edge set, it seems that some observers here believe that the first video shows a lot of heel pushes and that this is a bad thing. But it seems to me that even if there is a lot of heel pushing going on that these heel pushes are done with the skis on edge and thus represent a edge set as opposed to just a smearing of the snow with flat skis. If so, it would seem that these heel push edge sets could be improved upon simply by pressuring the center of the ski more -- so really it seems as if this would be just a nuance as opposed to a material flaw in technique to me.

Finally, It would be most helpful if Harb himself, or one of his colleagues, commented on the questions posted above. After all, Harb and his teaching staff best know his techniques and are thus in the best position to comment on these videos.


I'm obviously not Harald, but I'm happy to provide an interim answer since the questions you have are pretty simple to answer for anyone here who has been to a few camps and has had the benefit of PMTS instruction. PMTS skiers know how skiing works because conceptually it isn't that hard to understand. Actually doing it may be another thing, but the concepts aren't hard. :D

A good starting point for analysis of these videos (even if you know nothing about skiing) would be to ask yourself if the skiing being demonstrated represents something you would aspire to. The differences here are stark and hopefully you can see them even if you can't quite put your finger on why they look different.

There is real skiing happening in the first video. Essentials such as tipping, flexing through transition, counterbalancing and counteracting are being demonstrated--along with coordinated pole use. Both Bergie and the other skier (or is that still Bergie?) are getting performance from their skis. They are demonstrating good skiing and the movements they are using to generate those turns will work anywhere. IMO Bergie is demonstrating the better turns in first part of that clip. The second skier isn't controlling the energy he is generating as well and he isn't using his poles as well. While neither of these skiers are PMTS trained, they are demonstrating the type of skiing that PMTS will lead you to.

On that note, search youtube for "skiwhh" and you will find plenty of videos demonstrating PMTS skiing concepts. I think you will find that every video that Harald has posted up there is not only educational, but it is aspirational. All of it represents the kind of skiing I want to do. Also check out Max_501's videos as well. They are equally inspiring.

I see nothing to recommend from the Bridger video. The skiers in that video are doing what could best be described as dynamic pivot slips. They are extending upward to lighten their skis so they can twist them and then slamming into an edge set to try to generate energy to help them hop into the next turn. There is very little ski to snow contact, and they are not getting any benefit from the ski because they are not using it as designed. They are turning their skis instead of letting their skis turn them. They are fighting gravity instead of working with it. The rebound they are getting is minimal compared to what they would get if they actually bent their skis. They might as well have 2x4's on their legs. There are no fundamentals being demonstrated in that video. Many skiers who get no training but are otherwise athletic will end up with turns like those being demonstrated. Besides being physically exhausting to perform (and not demonstrating any kind of elegance), these type of turns are only going to work in soft snow. You cannot ski this way on ice as your skis will break loose at the bottom of the turn. When you ski this way (without solid fundamentals), every change in snow type or terrain is a new adventure. You end up skiing differently depending on whether you are in bumps, powder, crud, ice, steeps, etc. And believe me, its never easy and its never pretty.

Regarding your question about heel pushing, you don't want to do it, ever. If you are able to switch edges cleanly at transition, without rotating your skis, you are in a position where you have complete control over the oncoming turn. Because you were clean and are therefore not skidding, you have choices. You can aggressively tip to get an edge-locked carve, you can less aggressively tip and get a brushed carve, or you can apply some combination of the above all based on what conditions and terrain require. You have total control over radius and shape. This is what makes every turn you make bullet-proof. If, on the other hand, you push to get an edge you are a passenger. You get what you get. If the snow is soft enough, well maybe your ski hooks up and maybe it will start turning. Even so, if you've pushed your legs so they are extended, what are you going to do to control the shape of the remaining portion of the turn? You can't tip, so you have to twist. Of course, if the snow isn't soft and you never hook up at all, you are stuck riding the slide until you figure out how to regain control. Neither of these options have any appeal to me. I want the total control you can only get from a properly executed transition.

I'm not seeing a heel push in Bergie's skiing. There are a couple of places where you can see the tracks he's leaving and at least in those places, you can see a complete arc from transition without any kind of a push. I don't think the other guy is heel pushing either. He is clearly tipping which would tend to rule out a heel push. The reason the turns seem to finish so abruptly is because he is combining some aggressive tipping with a bit of a late hit on his edges. If he flexed more in transition, he'd have better snow contact and it would smooth out his turns.
Last edited by geoffda on Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
geoffda
 
Posts: 857
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:42 am
Location: Copper Mountain, CO

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby larski » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:50 pm

Thanks for reply.

Yes, I'd like Harb's response because others here don't like what they see in the first video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwJ7fuA3fsM ) and suspect "heal pushing." You, OTOH, like what you see. FWIW, I agree with you. But especially since there are differing views here, I'd really like to hear what Harb or a member of his staff thinks too.

Thanks for the youtube suggestion -- BTW, the keyword for this search is skiwhh (not skiwh).
larski
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:53 am

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby ToddW » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:49 pm

Harald made many comments about Berger's skiing, including the video you linked, in the thread "late hit and edge set" last February. Read the whole thread and you'll have a pretty thorough answer.
.
ToddW
 
Posts: 475
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:41 pm
Location: live: Westchester (NY) / ski: Killington

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby larski » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:27 pm

ToddW wrote:Harald made many comments about Berger's skiing, including the video you linked, in the thread "late hit and edge set" last February. Read the whole thread and you'll have a pretty thorough answer.



Great. Thanks.

Just perused it quickly. Seems like collapsing old stance as opposed to push or edge set is a big difference. That said, I'm thinking that just before collapse of old stance leg pressure is at maximum as prior turn in completed. So it looks to me like HH's method is to collapse old stance leg just after max pressure reached on this leg, then retract both legs while leading the tipping action with little toe of old stance leg (new inside leg). I guess this contrasts to a sort of combination edge set / "pushing off" action with old stance leg and jumping skis to other side?

I'll have to look at all this more carefully and read the relevant sections of HH's books.
larski
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:53 am

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby Max_501 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:42 pm

With regards to the first clip in this video HH comments on it in this post (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2736&start=45#p28238):

h.harb wrote:The skiing with the yellow pants is great.



User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4059
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby h.harb » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:04 pm

After watching Richie Berger with a more critical eye, he is a great bump skier, but some of his groomer runs aren't that great. In really short, half turns, he can hide some of his mistakes, some due to alignment, but they are there, can't hide alignment weaknesses.
User avatar
h.harb
 
Posts: 6774
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:08 pm
Location: Dumont, Colorado

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby h.harb » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:07 pm

After watching Richie Berger with a more critical eye, he is a great bump skier, but some of his groomer runs aren't that great. In really short, half turns, he can hide some of his mistakes, some due to alignment, but they are there, can't hide alignment weaknesses.
User avatar
h.harb
 
Posts: 6774
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:08 pm
Location: Dumont, Colorado

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby rwd » Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:38 pm

I have reviewed material from Book 2 re TFR and progression to BPSRT, and I am attempting to integrate with info from Essentials. Do I have this right?
Brushed carve (BPSRT): DELAY stance ski tipping until falline, DELAY CA until falline, leave pole planted until falline.
Carved turn: IMMEDIATE tipping after transition, EARLY CA above falline, early release of pole tip due to early CA. Thanks
rwd
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:32 am

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby HighAngles » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:30 pm

jbotti wrote:I just came back from skiing with Harald and Max 501. My goal in going was to work on my off piste skiing and garner the proper technique and tools to ski moguls efficiently and with the proper movement patterns.

What was apparent immediately is that I don't have a bullet proof short radius turn and without it as Harald says so elequently "you are entering gravitational warfare without the appropraite weapons" How True!!

Max 501 has the bullet proof SRT and a lot more. He was an inspiration to watch, and he skied the most difficult terrain looking quite like Harald. I benefitted immensley from learning about Max's focus and improvement program. As he has said before, he does the drills, constantly. But more importantly he does them until he can do them perfectly. And he has focused immensley on the BPSRT.

After 4 years of reading Harald's books and spending hill time with him and Diana, the light bulb finally went off (which makes me feel very thick). The (BPSRT) is the key to all good skiing. More importantly, in order for me to go to the next level in carving, I need to master this turn with all it's nuances.

Let's be clear, we are not talking about instructor brushed/skidded turns. We are talking about truns that are very short radius, but done in such a fashion that the only way that you can tell that they aren't edge locked carved is by looking at the tracks. There is immense counter, flexing and tip pressure to initiate every turn. Max 501 is the only one that I have seen do these turns besides Harald, Diana and Jay (which is not to say that others can't or don't). This turn wil take you everywhere and enable one to ski with ease in all the toughest terrain.

The coolest thing to watch is Max and Harald using these brushed carved SRT's as a springboard (in the same run) for edge lock carved turns that have huge ski bend and are wicked tight. I had some experinece with this (no where close to these two) at the end of some runs where I was doing brushed SRT's and then went into edge loked carves. These were my best carved turns ever (and they have much further to go).

The beauty of all this is that I have seen in person, live with my own eyes what the BPSRT can do in the toughest most difficult terrain (double black bumps). We already know that Harald slays them, but so does Max!!!

He is way too modest online and in person. He is vastly improved from the video he posted earlier, which I have said many times is excelllent skiing and most that are making comments have no clue how hard it is to do what he is doing (and that goes in triple spades for his skiing right now).

So how do we all learn to ski like Max?

Do the drills. More importantly I am now on his program. I am starting with book one, page one and I will do every drill and dryland training exercise. I will do them until I can do them perfectly and then I will move onto the next one. In book two, I will do them until I can pass the test that says that I can advance.

I will also work relentlessly on the BPSRT, starting with mastering the one and two footed release drills in bok two. If you don'y have a BPSRT, this is the place to start. Get these releases to the level that they are perfect and easy.

Lastly, I will try to get as much video shot of me as possible. The video never lies and it clears up personal perception vs. reality. This is one of Max's best learinig tools and everyone should use it as much a possible.

I have often heard the critics say, yeah, Harald can kill it (and so can Diana) but what about the students. Max skies like Harald!!! I always knew the instruction was the best, but I never believed that I could ski like Harald or Diana. Max is living proof that someone can ( and in 6 years no less!!).

PMTS, simply the best ski instruction in the world!!!


I know this thread was bumped for other reasons, but here we are 6 years later and I could have written the same exact post as JBotti after skiing with Max_501 and JBotti this past week - absolutely and truly inspirational. Seeing their skiing live and realizing what's truly possible with serious hard work and dedication has reinvigorated my dedication to going back to the beginning and really getting this stuff right this time around.
User avatar
HighAngles
 
Posts: 735
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:46 am

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby jbotti » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:07 pm

Clearly he is talking abut Max's skiing, but I appreciate being mentioned even in the same paragraph!!
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 1811
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

Re: Bullet Proof Short Radius Turns!!

Postby h.harb » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:13 am

All these changes and improvements with PMTS and it's techniques come out of books, "Expert 1 & 2 and Essentials". Yet, the Epic guys are still arguing about stance width and leg steering, and they are still skiing the same as they did 20 years ago; while everyone learning PMTS is passing them by. And that's just the beginning, step one of the road to expert skiing , it takes about two Harb Camps.
User avatar
h.harb
 
Posts: 6774
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:08 pm
Location: Dumont, Colorado

PreviousNext

Return to Primary Movements Teaching System

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest